Pirates

What do you propose instead? Just let the pirates get away with anything?
The situation is escalating; you can't just ignore it and hope it goes away.

I'm sorry where did I say I was against going after the pirates?

I would like to know how the expenditure is going to be paid for first that's all. This country is in a fiscal crisis and I don't think we should be engaging in any kind of major endeavor without figuring out how to pay for it first.
 
The South Koreans didn't seem to pussyfoot around.
Take their ship, lose your life.
 
I'm sorry where did I say I was against going after the pirates?

I would like to know how the expenditure is going to be paid for first that's all. This country is in a fiscal crisis and I don't think we should be engaging in any kind of major endeavor without figuring out how to pay for it first.

I am not sure it is a major endeavor in terms of money; it is not going to require the kind of massive commitment that Iraq and Afghanistan did in terms of ground troops. The naval forces are going to at sea anyway, just a case of redeploying them.
I think just cutting back a little in one of the Pentagon's high tech programs would cover the costs .
 
I am not sure it is a major endeavor in terms of money; it is not going to require the kind of massive commitment that Iraq and Afghanistan did in terms of ground troops. The naval forces are going to at sea anyway, just a case of redeploying them.
I think just cutting back a little in one of the Pentagon's high tech programs would cover the costs .
And the 1st Division was just marching around in Kansas so sending them to Iraq is just redeploying them.

I think you underestimate the problem. Somalia has 3000 km of coastline, that's like from Maine to Florida. How many ships do you think it would take to patrol that?

ETA: I stand corrected. 3000 km is further than Key West, Florida to Nova Scotia.
 
Last edited:
Wierd, my post didn't post...

So my question is, why hasn't a counter industry, for lack of a better term sprung up.

By this i mean groups of relatively the same kind of people who would be pirates, but instead of looting and pillaging, they chose to offer themselves to the well off and silly, as a security force against the pirates.

There seem to be no shortage of low income men who know how to boat, and are willing to risk their lives. And it seems to me this would be steadier income, and come with the added benefit of not having to fight off every branch of law enforcement.

Even if the government wouldn't sanction it, as long as they remained effective, non corrupt and not too psychotic, i am sure that people would turn a blind eye to any technical illegality.

I mean i am not saying be good for good's sake, but if you don't have to fight the law, this seems like the easier option.
 
Sadhatter the problem is anyone good enough to stop pirates is going to make more money being one

Or use the old hacker trick - go to jail, or work for us
 
And the 1st Division was just marching around in Kansas so sending them to Iraq is just redeploying them.

I think you underestimate the problem. Somalia has 3000 km of coastline, that's like from Maine to Florida. How many ships do you think it would take to patrol that?

ETA: I stand corrected. 3000 km is further than Key West, Florida to Nova Scotia.

I'd say four ships capable of hosting helicopters, a dozen frigates, at least a dozen Cyclone-class patrol boats (we have only about that many) and a real carrier for the EA-18s. Some of this is in the region now.
 
Sadhatter the problem is anyone good enough to stop pirates is going to make more money being one

Or use the old hacker trick - go to jail, or work for us

But i have to disagree with that.

As a pirate your taking much larger risks, and while day to day business may involve more taking on lighter armed people, you have the constant threat of law enforcement agencies.

As well, your taking the huge risk of a failed attempt, and not really getting anything, not to mention the sporadic nature of plundering. I mean, notice how the pirates arn't exactly living the high life. Someone being paid on a consistent basis, not to mention guaranteed pay for work ( versus the chance of getting jack all from a failed hijacking. )

And additionally, these don't seem to be people who are " good enough" , just a gent with knowledge of how to boat, and a willingness to risk their lives. If these traits were uncommon in people, we wouldn't have soldiers.

To compare, i can obviously see why we don't have good "gangs" in north america. ( actually there is some evidence there are, but not solid enough that i would use it in argument to prove my point.) , the police force is adequate, and the law prevents large scale things like this from taking place.

But on the high seas in an anarchistic area, it seems that being a mercenary for hire would work out much better for those that want to make a living sailing and killing. I mean hell, if i had the training ( boating and combat) it wouldn't be that far off from something i would do for a decent wage.
 
I'd say four ships capable of hosting helicopters, a dozen frigates, at least a dozen Cyclone-class patrol boats (we have only about that many) and a real carrier for the EA-18s. Some of this is in the region now.

That will handle 3000 km of coastline and I have no idea how many square miles of ocean?

Assuming the answer is yes, how much will that cost for a year or two?

BTW: You are right about the Cyclone's. There were 14 built, the Coast Guard has 3 and one was given to the Philippines. But a slight problem with them (from wikipedia)
In September 2010, the decision was made to recall all of the remaining ships of the class due to fatigue damage to their hulls. The class was designed for a lifespan of roughly 15 years. All but the newest member of the class, Tornado, have been in service longer. The vessels will be inspected and a decision will be made whether to refit them or to decommission the ships.
 
Ah! OK, then we need to have some more frigates.

What is the incremental cost? It's expensive, but as dudalb points out these vessels would be at sea anyway. We'd have more high speed running, and more helicopter sorties, so the fuel costs would be higher. Resupply would be more expensive at that distance.

What is the value of not having ships taken on the high seas by pirates?

What is the value of security?

What is the value of the nation not bowing to piracy?

This is complicated somewhat by the fact that many "American" merchant ships (in fact almost all of them) have their papers from Liberia or some other place where inspection amounts to paying a couple of thousand to the inspector.
 
And we would not try to patrol the whole coast, we would set up protected shipping lanes, and probably institute a convoy system.
And if we find Pirate bases, launch Special Operations raids against them.
 
Wierd, my post didn't post...

So my question is, why hasn't a counter industry, for lack of a better term sprung up.

By this i mean groups of relatively the same kind of people who would be pirates, but instead of looting and pillaging, they chose to offer themselves to the well off and silly, as a security force against the pirates.

There seem to be no shortage of low income men who know how to boat, and are willing to risk their lives. And it seems to me this would be steadier income, and come with the added benefit of not having to fight off every branch of law enforcement.

Even if the government wouldn't sanction it, as long as they remained effective, non corrupt and not too psychotic, i am sure that people would turn a blind eye to any technical illegality.

I mean i am not saying be good for good's sake, but if you don't have to fight the law, this seems like the easier option.

There is an old Russian saying about it's a bad idea to hire a goat to watch a cabbage patch......
 
There was a link to coverage where some pirate muckety said there won't be any more hostages.
They'll all be killed on capture.
Very bad idea, that.
With only pirates on the boat, sink the boat.
Vigorously.
 
There was a link to coverage where some pirate muckety said there won't be any more hostages.
They'll all be killed on capture.
Very bad idea, that.
With only pirates on the boat, sink the boat.
Vigorously.

They've kinda hijacked an oil tanker. Sink one of those and people will complain. In particular whoever's oil it is will complain.
 
They've kinda hijacked an oil tanker. Sink one of those and people will complain. In particular whoever's oil it is will complain.

Not to mention those people on shore in path of the Oil Slick......
 
So you want to kill the few fishermen who are trying to earn a legitimate living?

No. but if they can't control the scum among them and we need to do the job for them.............. I'm for it all the way. And I do not want any US troops killed doing it.
 
They've kinda hijacked an oil tanker. Sink one of those and people will complain. In particular whoever's oil it is will complain.
.
That thread I looked at mentioned the "investors" in the pirate's enterprise.
Something like the "letters of marque" that gummints used to issue, I expect, but by private businessmen.
If they get no return, not even the bodies of the pirates back, the investing appeal will go away.
Making the enterprise less profitable has to happen somehow.
Killing the pirates is one way.
Killing the financers is another.
 
No. but if they can't control the scum among them and we need to do the job for them.............. I'm for it all the way. And I do not want any US troops killed doing it.

Why would the fishermen there try to control the pirates? The pirates have guns. I'd wager most of the fishermen don't.
 
Why would the fishermen there try to control the pirates? The pirates have guns. I'd wager most of the fishermen don't.
My point We cannot make all out decisions based on the idea that some civilians somewhere may get hurt. I have no problem with leafleting or taking over their airwaves to suggest, say, it might be a good time to leave port really fast Then flatten the port - at least any launch capable (boat launch) part and have ships to capture each vessel to check for pirates and collect any arms. Take the win out of pirating and hang any captured there on the spot - though my pref is sinking their boats with them in them. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for pirates (gangs, mobs, mafias, etc.). I do not want them reproducing, recruiting , active, etc. Just dead and gone.
 
I'd say four ships capable of hosting helicopters, a dozen frigates, at least a dozen Cyclone-class patrol boats (we have only about that many) and a real carrier for the EA-18s. Some of this is in the region now.

Let's see here... Each of the ships involved can get up to about 30 knots if they really want to. Assuming they can maintain that for an hour (I'm not sure about that, but it's simpler this way) and converting, each ship could cover 110-120 km of shoreline (also assuming this is more like a 2D line). You have a total of 29 ships listed, giving us about 3000 km of coverage. Unfortunately, due to the nature of this coverage, there are still areas which no ship can reach for an hour or more. You appear to acknowledge the need for more ships with your next post... but we only have 19 frigates on active duty right now, and I'd be willing to bet most of them already have missions.

Problem two is that this assumes all these ships are on station all at once. This is, to put it bluntly, not possible. There needs to be some downtime in port, for the crew's sake if nothing else. Then we add transit time from home ports into the equation... Either we end up with less coverage, or we use more ships. The latter isn't possible without significant investments in a larger military, and the former is more or less what we have now.

And we would not try to patrol the whole coast, we would set up protected shipping lanes, and probably institute a convoy system.
And if we find Pirate bases, launch Special Operations raids against them.

Not a bad idea, but this still runs into the economic concerns of the merchant vessels. In general, it is actually a better decision, from an economic standpoint, to risk paying a ransom than it would be to add extra time to each voyage through the region. Not the greatest idea from a long term view, but unless the problem gets significantly worse, these companies will simply treat it as an additional cost.

Incidentally, this also doesn't account for traffic like the yacht which started this whole discussion - some people, for whatever reason, aren't going to want to or aren't going to be able to join a convoy.

In my opinion, there's little that can be done short of fixing Somalia - and it's unlikely any government is going to be particularly enthusiastic about nation building given the current political climate. While simply striking the pirates with brutal force is tempting, I don't think that will be effective for any length of time - as long as the current conditions prevail in Somalia, piracy is going to be encouraged. I think we would find that, for each group we found and annihilated, another group would be formed. We would run out of the money and willpower for such a campaign long before we ran out of targets.

Short of that, I believe the best solution requires more action on the part of the merchant vessels than the military. While the military can and should patrol to the greatest extent possible, there's simply too much ocean and not enough navy. These merchant vessels can mount a number of nonlethal weapons and defenses to make pirate attacks more difficult (increasing the amount of time required for the pirates to gain control, thus giving the navy more time to arrive) or can carry more lethal weaponry to fend off attacks all by themselves (risky, since it increases the chance that the pirates will respond in kind, but has the advantage that the ship may not need to wait for help). It's not an ideal solution, but as I already said, I don't think we're going to get one while Somalia remains in its current state.
 

Back
Top Bottom