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Philosophy of science: Does every adult have a gender identity?

Does every adult have a gender identity?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • No

    Votes: 8 66.7%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 3 25.0%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
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d4m10n

Penultimate Amazing
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Philosophy of science overlaps at times with metaphysics and ontology, especially when scientific practitioners coalesce around a hitherto unknown idea which becomes universally applicable, such as gender identity. My question here is basically whether the people who coined and popularized the idea of "gender identity" went too far when they defined it such that every adult must have one.

I've recently come across a handful of writers who find themselves at odds with the idea that everyone must have a gender identity, and I will excerpt three of them right now, perhaps more to come later.

First up is Shannon Thrace, author of 18 Months, describing an exchange between herself and her (MtF) spouse, whom she addresses throughout the memoir in the second person:

“I have a female gender identity,” you say, after a moment. “Same as you.”
“Wait—no. I don’t have a gender identity.
“Sure you do.” You seem offended, as though I deny it to prove some sort of point.
But I’m sure I don’t.
“You dress like a woman!” you say, waving your arm widely.
“I buy what’s on the rack. My clothes aren’t some extension of my psyche.”
“Then you don’t identify with femininity,” you say. “But you feel like a woman, inside.”
I know you want that to be true. But I don’t know this feeling.
In fact, I’m alienated by what’s supposed to interest women. The “biological clock” that hastens their plans to have children. The desire for jewelry. The talk of putting husbands “in the doghouse.” And I’m taken aback when I realize I’m being treated like a woman. Like when I returned to college, sure I wanted that computer science degree, and the guidance counselor smiled condescendingly and warned me there was math involved. Or when the window installers wouldn’t talk to me because they thought “the man of the house” should make the decisions. It’s other people who notice I’m a woman, not me.
You scoff when I tell you this. “You don’t have an internal sense, in your brain, that you’re a woman?”
“I don’t.” I see a female body when I look down, but there’s nothing more to it for me.

Next up is Robert Wintemute, from his new book:

I taught an intensive course at the University of Toronto on ‘Comparative Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Law’ and began referring to LGBT persons. Uncritically following the trend in the LGB and transgender-rights movements, I thought for many years that I had both a male birth sex and a male ‘gender identity’: my body is male and, in my mind, I think and feel that I am a man. But in 2020, a…woman told me that she did not have a ‘gender identity’. I thought about it and realized that I did not have one either. A quick glance at my genitals when using the toilet in the morning tells me my birth sex (male). Another glance before going to bed tells me that my birth sex is still the same. I do not ‘feel’ male. I do not ‘identify’ as male. I am male.
Finally, an excerpt from Doriane ColemanWP, author of On Sex and Gender: A Commonsense Approach:

We can carefully hold two truths—sex and gender—in our hands at once.
I’ll use myself again as an example. I don’t have a gender identity. Please don’t tell me that I do; since this is about my own inner sense of myself, that’s not your place. I do have a sex. I know this because I can see it, whether it’s with my own eyes or on scans and in blood test and urine sample results. I also know from years of experience that my sex is female, that it’s not just a part—a uterus, for example—or even a set of parts—for example, XX, ovaries, and testosterone levels in the female range—but rather a whole form, an integrated system, and that to a large extent that form and system have defined my life. That is, I’ve had a particular set of physiological and social experiences because my body developed as it did, according to my XX blueprint.

To put my question on its head: Are Thrace, Wintemute, & Coleman all mistaken (or dishonest) about their own subjective experiences of gender?

While this topic may seem destined to spiral down into the transgender thread from the social issues forum, we may take careful notice at the start that the specific claim being skeptically examined here is centered on cisgender people—no one has argued that transgender individuals might somehow lack the property of gender identity; they must have it in order to find themselves in that category by definition. While the answer to the poll question might possibly have some implications for the policy arguments in that thread, I don't want to revisit any of those arguments here in this one.
 
I feel like you would be exponentially more aware of your internal sense of identity if it didn't jibe with your body. Like, I don't prance around singing "I'm a manly man" ditties, or relish in my masculinity. The stuff I do just goes with the guy stuff, without me feeling any way about it beyond "this feels right". And "right" is pretty conventionally guy stuff.
 
My first thought is "Does everyone have an accent?". To which the answer obviously is yes, except for me.
 
I don't have a gender identity. I don't 'feel' either male or female. I was always very gender non-conforming from a very early age. When I was a child and adolescent, I used to think that other children (and adults) who were more gender conforming were basically sheep, who thought they had to act that way because they were told to and they were too stupid to think for themselves. It was only much later that it occurred to me that other people might just naturally be more gender conforming the same way I seemed to be naturally non-conforming.

I object to people telling me I have a gender identity just because I know what sex I am. That implies that I identify with a 'role' or 'feel' something that I don't.
 
No, and it has been a severe disadvantage in the job market. I'd walk into a job interview, looking like a fabulous homage to Ziggy Stardust, and everything would be going swimmingly. But then they'd ask me whether I identify as a woman, and when I'd say no, they'd realize that I'm just a regular type of mad person, and I wouldn't get the job.
 
I don't have a gender identity. I don't 'feel' either male or female. I was always very gender non-conforming from a very early age. When I was a child and adolescent, I used to think that other children (and adults) who were more gender conforming were basically sheep, who thought they had to act that way because they were told to and they were too stupid to think for themselves. It was only much later that it occurred to me that other people might just naturally be more gender conforming the same way I seemed to be naturally non-conforming.

I object to people telling me I have a gender identity just because I know what sex I am. That implies that I identify with a 'role' or 'feel' something that I don't.

While I can imagine it grates having people try to shoehorn you into a particular gender identity that doesn't fit, I don't really understand in what way the feelings you've described here don't count as an identity.

The stuff I wrote above about everyone having an accent may have looked merely facetious but it wasn't really.
 
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I grew up in a time where despite having male bits I was not considered by society at large a man, and back then I was quite happy to not be considered a man. But the socially constructed gender of "man" has changed over the decades and there was a short period when my "internal" maleness could be mapped over the social gender of "man". Sadly as can be seen the right has used many useful idiots to start winding back what a man can be again, I suspect I will die a male and again not a man.

So my internal "gender ID" i.e. the sense of who I feel I am, has always been male, but that hasn't always mapped to gender IDs that society creates such as "a man".
 
While I can imagine it grates having people try to shoehorn you into a particular gender identity that doesn't fit, I don't really understand in what way the feelings you've described here don't count as an identity.

The stuff I wrote above about everyone having an accent may have looked merely facetious but it wasn't really.
Why should they count as an identity? I have a sex and personality characteristics. Those are characteristics, not 'identities'. If you say 'woman' is a gender identity rather than a sex, then I can't describe myself as a woman without people making lots of stupid assumptions, like assuming I perceive myself as feminine, identify with a 'gender role' and so on. I would be forced to describe myself as non-binary just to avoid misconceptions, but I don't want to do that because I don't ascribe to the anti-scientific, sexist and regressive philosophical belief system behind that.

OTOH, if 'woman' just refers to sex I can have any personality, any role, any interests and there is no need to make any assumptions.
 
I grew up in a time where despite having male bits I was not considered by society at large a man, and back then I was quite happy to not be considered a man. But the socially constructed gender of "man" has changed over the decades and there was a short period when my "internal" maleness could be mapped over the social gender of "man". Sadly as can be seen the right has used many useful idiots to start winding back what a man can be again, I suspect I will die a male and again not a man.

So my internal "gender ID" i.e. the sense of who I feel I am, has always been male, but that hasn't always mapped to gender IDs that society creates such as "a man".

Yup, in a far lower key way, that would be similar to what I have often experienced.

If I'd had the pierced ears and henna'd hair during my school years...
 
If this is going to be the place where we define what the ◊◊◊◊ a gender identity is, that'd be great.
"Gender identity refers to an individual's personal sense of identity as masculine or feminine, or some combination thereof." 1

I'm fairly open to other (non-recursive) definitions, this is just the first one listed on the wiki.
 
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"Gender identity refers to an individual's personal sense of identity as masculine or feminine, or some combination thereof." 1

I'm fairly open to other (non-recursive) definitions, this is just the first one listed on the wiki.
'Gender identity refers to a sense of identity with regard to gender' is not fractionally as useful.as it would seem at first blush.

I'd also say it was dead wrong; I've met guys who consider themselves men that act very feminine, not even getting into what masculine and feminine actually mean.

I'd say it means closer to something like how you see yourself in terms of being a man or woman. Then we can full circle this bitch back to 'what is a woman?'

It's all the same question.
 
If this is going to be the place where we define what the ◊◊◊◊ a gender identity is, that'd be great.
No, because one side doesn't really want to engage with that, and the other side thinks fascism is the answer, while those in between are reluctant to step into the crossfire, lest fascism win.
 
'Gender identity refers to a sense of identity with regard to gender' is not fractionally as useful as it would seem at first blush.
Which is precisely why I didn't paste that one in.
I'd say it means closer to something like how you see yourself in terms of being a man or woman
Assuming you can define those terms without circling right back to gender identity?
 
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Which is precisely why I didn't paste that one in.
Assuming you can define those terms without circling right back to gender identity?
Which circles right back to my springing eternally hope that we are going to nail.this puppy down in order to discuss it?
 
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