UndercoverElephant
Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2002
- Messages
- 9,058
OK, some general points.
The stuff about Tesla is aimed at New Agers, not skeptics. Whether or not Tesla actually tapped into some 'zero point energy' is beside the point - the article certainly isn't suggesting this is a way forward - it is ruling it out. It is only mentioned so that the New Agers won't think that some sort of wacky zero-point energy is going to get humanity of the hole it has dug for itself. So you can attack the mentions of Tesla, but it has zip to do with the thrust of the article. It is a side-show.
Second, the fact that the guy is 'predicting doom' and that others have predicted doom before is also irrelevant. You cannot judge all doomsayers as equally wrong as others. That is based on the assumption that because all the others were wrong, this one must be wrong. That sort of reasoning is flawed, and anyone who understood what was written by the philosopher David Hume (perhaps the greatest skeptic of them all) should know it is flawed. Just because you have never seen a white crow, doesn't mean that you should assume you will never see one.
The stuff about 'the world trade centre vanishing' is largely scene-setting theatrics. Although it is not irrelevant - I agree with the author that the history books will point to 9/11 as the beginning of the end for western civilisation.
Actually, the burden is on YOU to refute the relevant facts from the article, and you have not done so. All you have done is quote a book which says "there will be no oil crisis". The book is considerably older than the article, and the article is based on up-to-date science and up-to-date politics. Lomborgs book, as well as being out of date, has been well and truly slated by those who really understand the subject :
http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp
In short, Lomborgs book isn't worth the paper it is written on, so please try to deal with what is posted in the article without quoting a discredited source like Lomborg.
I am not interested in Lomborgs propaganda. Yes, there is still some oil left, yes we aren't going to run out tomorrow. The most conservative realistic estimate for 'peak oil' is about 2015.
When oil becomes prohibitively expensive much more use will be made of alternative sources of energy. The problem is that there are very few alternative sources to replace oil as a raw material in plastics, drugs, fertilisers and all of the rest of the things we use it for. It isn't just fuel. Its everything else as well.
Eh? So you think the war wasn't about oil?
Well now I have provided a whole page worth of academics who also think Lomborg is talking out of his backside because he has a political agenda.
No, but I have heard nonsense quoted from it from several years now.
Scientific American article explaining why the coming Oil Crash is so much worse than the oil crisises of the 1970's.:
http://www.planetforlife.com/End of Cheap Oil.htm
The stuff about Tesla is aimed at New Agers, not skeptics. Whether or not Tesla actually tapped into some 'zero point energy' is beside the point - the article certainly isn't suggesting this is a way forward - it is ruling it out. It is only mentioned so that the New Agers won't think that some sort of wacky zero-point energy is going to get humanity of the hole it has dug for itself. So you can attack the mentions of Tesla, but it has zip to do with the thrust of the article. It is a side-show.
Second, the fact that the guy is 'predicting doom' and that others have predicted doom before is also irrelevant. You cannot judge all doomsayers as equally wrong as others. That is based on the assumption that because all the others were wrong, this one must be wrong. That sort of reasoning is flawed, and anyone who understood what was written by the philosopher David Hume (perhaps the greatest skeptic of them all) should know it is flawed. Just because you have never seen a white crow, doesn't mean that you should assume you will never see one.
The stuff about 'the world trade centre vanishing' is largely scene-setting theatrics. Although it is not irrelevant - I agree with the author that the history books will point to 9/11 as the beginning of the end for western civilisation.
Here you have not refuted one fact that Lomborg posited in his book, (there are hundreds of references BTW, pick one.)
Actually, the burden is on YOU to refute the relevant facts from the article, and you have not done so. All you have done is quote a book which says "there will be no oil crisis". The book is considerably older than the article, and the article is based on up-to-date science and up-to-date politics. Lomborgs book, as well as being out of date, has been well and truly slated by those who really understand the subject :
http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp
Grist wondered how the book would hold up under more rigorous scrutiny, and asked respected scientists and leaders in their fields to address the allegations in The Skeptical Environmentalist. By bringing a healthy dose of skepticism to Lomborg's own claims, the resulting compilation fights fire with fire; we leave it to our readers to determine who gets flambeed.
Extinction
Biologist E.O. Wilson -- two-time Pulitzer prize winner, discoverer of hundreds of new species, and one of the world's greatest living scientists -- debunks Lomborg's analysis of extinction rates.
Climate
Stephen H. Schneider, one of the foremost climate scientists in the United States, discredits Lomborg on global climate change and takes Cambridge University Press and the media to task for publishing and praising a polemic.
Species diversity
Norman Myers, an Honorary Visiting Fellow of Oxford University, a member of the U.S. National Academy of the Sciences, and a recipient of several of the world's most prestigious environmental awards, looks at Lomborg on biodiversity and concludes that he lacks even "a preliminary understanding of the science in question."
Population
Lester R. Brown, founder of the Worldwatch Institute and the Earth Policy Institute, reviews Lomborg on population and concludes that his analysis is so "fundamentally flawed" that other professionals would do well to disassociate themselves from his work.
Forests
Emily Matthews, a forest expert and senior associate with the World Resources Institute, shows that Lomborg reaches wildly inaccurate conclusions about deforestation by fudging data or failing to interpret it correctly.
Statistics
Al Hammond, senior scientist at World Resources Institute, criticizes Lomborg for mischaracterizing the contemporary environmental movement and committing precisely the sins for which he attacks environmentalists: exaggeration, sweeping generalizations, the presentation of false choices, selective use of data, and outright errors of fact.
Human health
Devra Davis, a leading epidemiologist and environmental health researcher, acknowledges that environmentalists have made some errors but argues that Lomborg, too, is seriously mistaken about how the environment affects public health.
Energy
Energy expert David Nemtzow, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, says Lomborg wastes his time battling a straw man: Virtually no one in the contemporary environmental movement disputes that fossil fuels are abundant, Nemtzow argues; in fact, it's precisely their abundance and their impact on our ecosystems that's the trouble.
So what?
In a review of the politics behind the statistics, Grist Assistant Editor Kathryn Schulz argues that Lomborg's real goal is to divide the left and discredit the environmental movement
In short, Lomborgs book isn't worth the paper it is written on, so please try to deal with what is posted in the article without quoting a discredited source like Lomborg.
Also, old oil wells are far from empty, they were abandoned in the early part of the 20th century because using technology of that time it was actually cheaper for oil companies to drill and import oil from abroad. The wells are still very full, and our technology to extract it has greatly improved. That being said, Lomborg calculated......
I am not interested in Lomborgs propaganda. Yes, there is still some oil left, yes we aren't going to run out tomorrow. The most conservative realistic estimate for 'peak oil' is about 2015.
the current trend in cost of alternative energy and it is about 2035 to the crossover point, where alt. becomes cheaper. Please refute these facts- once alt. energy becomes cheaper, we will start to use it vigorously. Any problems with this statement? If no, then you should agree we are not going to have an energy crisis. Lets discuss.
When oil becomes prohibitively expensive much more use will be made of alternative sources of energy. The problem is that there are very few alternative sources to replace oil as a raw material in plastics, drugs, fertilisers and all of the rest of the things we use it for. It isn't just fuel. Its everything else as well.
Second, I was opposed to military action in Iraq, we can rehash the facts, but hey, no one has been able to find Bush´s WMD, not the UN, not France, not even his own troops, inspectors, and specialists, using all available means. Not one iota. And what does Iraq have to do with Peak Oil? We hardly get any of our oil from Iraq, nor are we predicted to in the future. Our biggest trading partners are Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Argentina if I am not mistaken.
Eh? So you think the war wasn't about oil?
So far you have presented "Lomborg is wrong because I say so,"
Well now I have provided a whole page worth of academics who also think Lomborg is talking out of his backside because he has a political agenda.
Have you even read Lomborgs book?
No, but I have heard nonsense quoted from it from several years now.
How about the criticisms in American Scientific and his response to those criticisms?
Scientific American article explaining why the coming Oil Crash is so much worse than the oil crisises of the 1970's.:
http://www.planetforlife.com/End of Cheap Oil.htm