Peak Oil

OK, some general points.

The stuff about Tesla is aimed at New Agers, not skeptics. Whether or not Tesla actually tapped into some 'zero point energy' is beside the point - the article certainly isn't suggesting this is a way forward - it is ruling it out. It is only mentioned so that the New Agers won't think that some sort of wacky zero-point energy is going to get humanity of the hole it has dug for itself. So you can attack the mentions of Tesla, but it has zip to do with the thrust of the article. It is a side-show.

Second, the fact that the guy is 'predicting doom' and that others have predicted doom before is also irrelevant. You cannot judge all doomsayers as equally wrong as others. That is based on the assumption that because all the others were wrong, this one must be wrong. That sort of reasoning is flawed, and anyone who understood what was written by the philosopher David Hume (perhaps the greatest skeptic of them all) should know it is flawed. Just because you have never seen a white crow, doesn't mean that you should assume you will never see one.

The stuff about 'the world trade centre vanishing' is largely scene-setting theatrics. Although it is not irrelevant - I agree with the author that the history books will point to 9/11 as the beginning of the end for western civilisation.

Here you have not refuted one fact that Lomborg posited in his book, (there are hundreds of references BTW, pick one.)

Actually, the burden is on YOU to refute the relevant facts from the article, and you have not done so. All you have done is quote a book which says "there will be no oil crisis". The book is considerably older than the article, and the article is based on up-to-date science and up-to-date politics. Lomborgs book, as well as being out of date, has been well and truly slated by those who really understand the subject :

http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp

Grist wondered how the book would hold up under more rigorous scrutiny, and asked respected scientists and leaders in their fields to address the allegations in The Skeptical Environmentalist. By bringing a healthy dose of skepticism to Lomborg's own claims, the resulting compilation fights fire with fire; we leave it to our readers to determine who gets flambeed.


Extinction
Biologist E.O. Wilson -- two-time Pulitzer prize winner, discoverer of hundreds of new species, and one of the world's greatest living scientists -- debunks Lomborg's analysis of extinction rates.

Climate
Stephen H. Schneider, one of the foremost climate scientists in the United States, discredits Lomborg on global climate change and takes Cambridge University Press and the media to task for publishing and praising a polemic.

Species diversity
Norman Myers, an Honorary Visiting Fellow of Oxford University, a member of the U.S. National Academy of the Sciences, and a recipient of several of the world's most prestigious environmental awards, looks at Lomborg on biodiversity and concludes that he lacks even "a preliminary understanding of the science in question."

Population
Lester R. Brown, founder of the Worldwatch Institute and the Earth Policy Institute, reviews Lomborg on population and concludes that his analysis is so "fundamentally flawed" that other professionals would do well to disassociate themselves from his work.

Forests
Emily Matthews, a forest expert and senior associate with the World Resources Institute, shows that Lomborg reaches wildly inaccurate conclusions about deforestation by fudging data or failing to interpret it correctly.

Statistics
Al Hammond, senior scientist at World Resources Institute, criticizes Lomborg for mischaracterizing the contemporary environmental movement and committing precisely the sins for which he attacks environmentalists: exaggeration, sweeping generalizations, the presentation of false choices, selective use of data, and outright errors of fact.

Human health
Devra Davis, a leading epidemiologist and environmental health researcher, acknowledges that environmentalists have made some errors but argues that Lomborg, too, is seriously mistaken about how the environment affects public health.

Energy
Energy expert David Nemtzow, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, says Lomborg wastes his time battling a straw man: Virtually no one in the contemporary environmental movement disputes that fossil fuels are abundant, Nemtzow argues; in fact, it's precisely their abundance and their impact on our ecosystems that's the trouble.

So what?
In a review of the politics behind the statistics, Grist Assistant Editor Kathryn Schulz argues that Lomborg's real goal is to divide the left and discredit the environmental movement

In short, Lomborgs book isn't worth the paper it is written on, so please try to deal with what is posted in the article without quoting a discredited source like Lomborg.


Also, old oil wells are far from empty, they were abandoned in the early part of the 20th century because using technology of that time it was actually cheaper for oil companies to drill and import oil from abroad. The wells are still very full, and our technology to extract it has greatly improved. That being said, Lomborg calculated......

I am not interested in Lomborgs propaganda. Yes, there is still some oil left, yes we aren't going to run out tomorrow. The most conservative realistic estimate for 'peak oil' is about 2015.

the current trend in cost of alternative energy and it is about 2035 to the crossover point, where alt. becomes cheaper. Please refute these facts- once alt. energy becomes cheaper, we will start to use it vigorously. Any problems with this statement? If no, then you should agree we are not going to have an energy crisis. Lets discuss.

When oil becomes prohibitively expensive much more use will be made of alternative sources of energy. The problem is that there are very few alternative sources to replace oil as a raw material in plastics, drugs, fertilisers and all of the rest of the things we use it for. It isn't just fuel. Its everything else as well.


Second, I was opposed to military action in Iraq, we can rehash the facts, but hey, no one has been able to find Bush´s WMD, not the UN, not France, not even his own troops, inspectors, and specialists, using all available means. Not one iota. And what does Iraq have to do with Peak Oil? We hardly get any of our oil from Iraq, nor are we predicted to in the future. Our biggest trading partners are Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Argentina if I am not mistaken.

Eh? So you think the war wasn't about oil? :eek:

So far you have presented "Lomborg is wrong because I say so,"

Well now I have provided a whole page worth of academics who also think Lomborg is talking out of his backside because he has a political agenda. :)

Have you even read Lomborgs book?

No, but I have heard nonsense quoted from it from several years now.

How about the criticisms in American Scientific and his response to those criticisms?

Scientific American article explaining why the coming Oil Crash is so much worse than the oil crisises of the 1970's.:

http://www.planetforlife.com/End of Cheap Oil.htm
 
JustGeoff said:
OK, some general points.

1) Actually, the burden is on YOU to refute the relevant facts from the article, and you have not done so. All you have done is quote a book which says "there will be no oil crisis". The book is considerably older than the article, and the article is based on up-to-date science and up-to-date politics. Lomborgs book, as well as being out of date, has been well and truly slated by those who really understand the subject :

http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp



2) In short, Lomborgs book isn't worth the paper it is written on, so please try to deal with what is posted in the article without quoting a discredited source like Lomborg.

3) I am not interested in Lomborgs propaganda. Yes, there is still some oil left, yes we aren't going to run out tomorrow. The most conservative realistic estimate for 'peak oil' is about 2015.

4) When oil becomes prohibitively expensive much more use will be made of alternative sources of energy. The problem is that there are very few alternative sources to replace oil as a raw material in plastics, drugs, fertilisers and all of the rest of the things we use it for. It isn't just fuel. Its everything else as well.

5) Eh? So you think the war wasn't about oil? :eek:

6) Well now I have provided a whole page worth of academics who also think Lomborg is talking out of his backside because he has a political agenda. :)

7) No, but I have heard nonsense quoted from it from several years now.

8) Scientific American article explaining why the coming Oil Crash is so much worse than the oil crisises of the 1970's.:

http://www.planetforlife.com/End of Cheap Oil.htm

I hope you do not mind that I have added numbers to your post for clarity, but I wanted to discuss each point, I am sure you would agree this is OK.

1) OK, I will try to defend it, although I do not have a week to spend on this, so bear with me.
First, a lot of people claim Lomborg lacks a scientific background on the issues he talks about. If you read his book, he entirely agrees, which is why he had all of the scientific parts written by experts in those specific areas. He only comments on the policies and effects on the public which is his field of expertise, so lets debunk that point right away. (See introduction/chapter 1 of TES.) As for research to date, I have been reading the actual primary sources on climate change and environmental science and hold a degree in that subject from an accredited US university. I also read the criticisms. So far, all the critics have done is to repeat their original points Lomborg has debunked in his book. What up to date information? Your post is a little vague, but I will address the articles you posted as they are numbered.

2) Extinction: Here the same exact argument is being made by the environmentalists. Lomborgs original point, I will repeat: It is not disputed that animal species and other "cute" organisms are going to be lost and have been lost. But to claim that all organisms, ie bacteria, mold, fungus, an insects will also go extinct is totally unproven. So here, the ecologists are making wild claims with absolutely no hard data whatsoever. No quantitative references are made as to how those extinction rates are calculated quantitatively, it is totally qualitative based on a select number of organisms, with no hard data. Lomborg suggests funding more ecology research so we can see just how, quantitatively this issue is progressing. Also, we have only deystroyed about 18% of all rainforests over the past 500 years. The media makes it out to look like there is only a few acres left. Further, managed tree farms in South America can grow all of the export/domestic products while only consuming around 3% of total forest cover preserving the rest of the environment. BTW, the statistics all come from the countries which report them, and or the UN, or the US official statistics. There simply are no other sources available, so pick up the book, and see for yourself. Lomborg only presents facts. Apparently the ecologists do not.
Climate:
Here, the author makes one massive appeal to emotions after another, a typical tactic. He uses the IPCC as the source to claim that Lomborg is wrong. Just to start, the IPCC recommendations to change the United States: swtch to local only economies, abandon all cars, and force people to live in shared community housing. Nazi ghettos anyone? Their recommendations on how humanity should change goes to show just how out of touch with reality they are. The IPCC has come under increased scrutiny lately, as the data they base their calculations on are flawed and incomplete. For example, the July paper in the Harvard Medical School publication reveals how the sun actually fluctuates and cycles over time as to the amount of radiation it emitts towards the earth, greatly effecting GW. This was excluded from the old IPCC estimates. They merely accounted for what they knew, then arbitrarily assigned the rest of warming to human activity without evidence. So in short, Lomborg admitted openly we did not have enough data. The IPCC did not. It is agreed now that we do not know enough amongst climatologists.
Species Diversity:
First, Brown was attacked in TES, and to quote Brown from the article you cited: "As my 1979 book emphasizes, the estimate of 40,000 extinctions per year was strictly a first-cut assessment, preliminary and exploratory, and advanced primarily to get the issue of extinction onto scientific and political agendas." Who has an agenda to push, and openly admits they lied about it? Further, Lomborg criticises this particular paper because it is used most often by environmental groups to get money and or political changes that are not warranted by the facts, in which here, Brown openly admits are false.
Population:
Talk about a diatribe, which is exactly what this author accuses Lomborg of. The author also makes the same claims, once again, which are not at all supported by the facts: "For example, the world's forested area, measured in terms of healthy, productive stands of trees, is shrinking." This is actually totally false, not only is the total forested area larger today than 60 years ago, it is increasing according to the US Dept. of Forestry and the UN official statistics. No source is given by the author. Go figure. He then goes on to say that because he went to a farm in a third world country and did not see a forest that that is the proof. So because some people grew food to combat the undisputed number one killer of humans (malnutrition,) in a small area, therefore all forests around the world are shrinking? Take a look at the official numbers. This guy is out to lunch.
Forests:
Lomborgs main point here was to counteract the litany that total forest cover is declining. It is already known that "original" or "virgin" forest cover has been significantly lost. The point of the book is to counteract groups who claim that TFC is decreasing. It is not, and even this author admits this fact.
Statistics:
One: "global warming is not worth addressing " Never said any such thing. In fact, he deddicated an entire, huge chapter on the subject. Clearly, this author never read the book. Makes me wonder how he can possibly criticise it? Further: "While the tons of fish taken from the sea have indeed doubled, many marine fish stocks are now badly depleted as a result, and harvests of cod, swordfish, halibut, and many other commercially important species have crashed. There are literally hundreds of such misleading statements in the book." Another straw man. Lomborg openly admits that natural fish stocks have plummeted, but that the demand for fish is being matched by fish farms, which he goes into great detail. So here, we see two blatant lies which Lomborg never made, were never in the book.
Human Health:
Another straw man lie: "confesses to having no training in science." Total lie, he has a Ph.D. in statistics and has published peer reviewed papers. Statistics is a science. Further, "He does not show that the incidence of new cases of cancer not known to be linked to smoking has increased, so that young men of Generation X are four times more likely to get cancer than were their grandfathers. " Yes, he does. People are living longer. The chance of a woman dying from breast cancer before age 65, for all causes of death os only 5%. Further, the average age for diagnosis of prostate cancer is 75. We are living longer, so our chances of getting old age diseases such as cancer are higher. Quite simple really. Further, the CDC statistics are clear, cancer is a lifestyle disease overwhelmingly linked to smoking, sunbathing and HIV. The "organic" crowd hates to see this because they are scamming people out of billions of dollars for worthless organic food and other new age products. When Consumer Reports tested organic foods, 70% of the organic crap tested positive for the same chemicals as the "covnventional" food. I have personally tested organic food and have quantitatively measured those compounds where the label on the package specifically said it did not contain. Further, the Organic Rules of the USDA from October 2002 specifically state they can use as much synthetic pesticides (Ivermectin,) and must use antibiotics if animals are sick. Specifically, Bread and Circus denies these policies. Human health is getting better, and people are living longer. This article is nothing short of a straw man designed to support silly new age scams such as organic foods.
Energy:
The author starts out by admitting "We must give Lomborg his due, because he is correct;" Further, Lomborgs point was not to criticise legitimate environmental groups, but to attack the litany that the public is increasingly buying into. Lomborg does not state that everything is fine, don´t worry, but that we are spending precious resources on non-issues such as organic foods, and fringe environmental groups who lie a lot. So the main point is silly, and once again Lomborg says right in the beginning of TES that he is attacking the litanny, not solid research. "A Man Without a Plan" another straw man. Lomborg actually specifically states that wind and solar will be cheaper at current rates by 2035. He also states clearly that reducing GHG emissions will be extremely costly (which is true,) and that we shoud instead spend that money on helping the developing world protect itself from the effects of GW until we can cheaply switch over. Here the author beleives we should instead spend trillions for virtually no benefits whatsoever, and let people in DC die. It is not controversial to say that climate change takes centuries to have an effect, and we are not even sure how much humanity is effecting the climate, so doing a GHG reduction plan is incredibly stupid. I guess this author also did not read the book.
So What?
"his arguments, which weren't peer-reviewed " once again, straw man. They were not only reviewed, but were written by experts in those specific areas, and the references are mostly perer reviewed papers. What a joke. The author goes on to say: "This argument is patently bogus -- Lomborg fails to generate a single example of an environmental organization promoting its own ends at the expense of health, welfare, or education " How about Kyoto? How about The Nature Conservancy? How aboout the IPCC (even mentioned in the other sections of this article??!!?) Just look in the first chapter. Once again, another book reviewer who never read the book.
More straw: "." Furthermore, it "undermines our confidence in our ability to solve our remaining problems. It gives us a feeling of being under siege, constantly having to act with our backs to the wall, and this means that we will often implement unwise decisions based on emotional gut reactions."

That is heavy-duty stuff, but once again (and unsurprisingly), Lomborg cannot generate a single example of anyone, anywhere, who ever committed a rash act based on sheer, uncontrollable terror about the worsening environment."
How about Earth First!? How about Al Gore, who made the law based on the littany? Both mentioned in the book BTW. Again, lies, lies and more lies. Straw everywhere.

2) and 3) Clearly you are interested in him and his work to have devoted so many straw men to defeat him.

4) Chitin: it is extremely abundant and is a good source of plastics.
Manure: The natural fertilizer, which accounts for 60% of all fertilizer used in the USA (USDA statistic.) We can also use compost, sludge etc. There are many sources.
drugs: Huh? Most drugs are manufactured using a whole host of compounds to which there are alternatives in abundance if those few who rely on petrolium were depleted. Its a field called synthetic organic chemistry. Look it up.

5) The war was also about bringing xtianity to islamic countries, and about Bushs own ideas about what the world should be like. Again, the US does not project a great amount of oil imports from Iraq over the next 20 years according to the US government.

6) OK, and I have shown you that few, if any of the academics you listed even read the book for crying out loud. Blatant errors and strawmen.

7) You should read what you are criticising, otherwise you have merely dismissed this work as the others have without any idea about what is actually in it. You clearly would not accept the criticisms in the articles you posted because they are obviously wrong through and through if you had read the book.

8) "THE END OF CHEAP OIL" Oil is getting cheaper and cheaper over time, which is not disputed in the article. To wrap this up, the article once again is thinking statically, and does not believe we will develop cheaper means to produce alternative energy sources. This is like developing a prototype and claiming all such products will cost the millions of dollars as the prototype. Totally bogus. Humanity has throughout history abandoned one thing for another and made it cheaper. If oil goes out, we will develop cheaper alternatives, its obvious, and its how societies work. We will never face a wide scale, disastrous energy crisis barring all out nuclear war in which our society collapses. All I see are logical fallacies here.

I am going to end this post here, as I am consuming a lot of time. My main discovery is that virtually none of the reviewers actually read the book, which is apparent from their responses. Think about it, wont you?
 
Quasi,

I do not expect everybody to instantaneously accept the shocking truth that the world as we know it is going to come to an end. Every civilisation that spanned the world believed it would never come to an end, and until the day that the roof came crashing down on them, many still didn't believe it. I have to accept that there will be a minority of people like you who will do everything they can to find ways to continue believing that "everything is alright really", even though everything really isn't alright at all. I am not going to waste my time or your time arguing about Lomborgs worthless propaganda. If you have a need to go on believing in that stuff, then good for you. I don't argue with Christian fundamentalists anymore, either.

These things take time. Keep watching, Quasi. One day, sooner than you think, you will have to face up to these things. But I am not going to force you to do so now. :)

You have tried to deflect the argument somewhere completely different to where is should be. This should be a debate about the article that was posted. Instead, you have tried to turn it into a debate about whether or not Lomborgs book is credible or not credible. We could argue about that for a long time, get nowhere, and all that would have been acheived is that you will have avoided having to actually look at the up-to-date sources of information provided in the original article.

I am not interested in Bjorn Lomborg. His work is discredited, and you cannot cite a book several years old as a general "catch-all" rebuttal of an article written four weeks ago. YOU HAVE TO REBUTT THE ARTICLE AND ITS OWN DATA AND SOURCES. Do you understand this?

By the way, there is nothing personal about this. I am fully aware of the severity of what is being said and the difficulty in accepting it as true. As the article itself says "finger-pointing and looking for people to blame is about as useful at this point as a circular firing squad."

Geoff.
 
JustGeoff said:
Quasi,

1) I do not expect everybody to instantaneously accept the shocking truth that the world as we know it is going to come to an end. Every civilisation that spanned the world believed it would never come to an end, and until the day that the roof came crashing down on them, many still didn't believe it.

2) I have to accept that there will be a minority of people like you who will do everything they can to find ways to continue believing that "everything is alright really", even though everything really isn't alright at all.

3)I am not going to waste my time or your time arguing about Lomborgs worthless propaganda. If you have a need to go on believing in that stuff, then good for you. I don't argue with Christian fundamentalists anymore, either.

4) These things take time. Keep watching, Quasi. One day, sooner than you think, you will have to face up to these things. But I am not going to force you to do so now. :)

5) You have tried to deflect the argument somewhere completely different to where is should be. This should be a debate about the article that was posted. Instead, you have tried to turn it into a debate about whether or not Lomborgs book is credible or not credible. We could argue about that for a long time, get nowhere, and all that would have been acheived is that you will have avoided having to actually look at the up-to-date sources of information provided in the original article.

6) I am not interested in Bjorn Lomborg. His work is discredited, and you cannot cite a book several years old as a general "catch-all" rebuttal of an article written four weeks ago. YOU HAVE TO REBUTT THE ARTICLE AND ITS OWN DATA AND SOURCES. Do you understand this?

7) By the way, there is nothing personal about this. I am fully aware of the severity of what is being said and the difficulty in accepting it as true. As the article itself says "finger-pointing and looking for people to blame is about as useful at this point as a circular firing squad."

Geoff.

1) Many civilizations have ended, however the end was predicted from the viewpoint of their peak cultural achievements, and "end" is ambiguous. Societies change, and are absorbed, and are not static. In the country where I live, latin is still listed as one of the official national languages, and roman ruins are widespread. I suppose you believe that a worldwide energy crisis will end life as we know it. So be it, but the USA will still be there, it will be the developing nations who will die like moths in a fire. Even in your scenario, we still have nuclear power, coal, etc, so not all energy will be out. What exact time frame are we talking here? One day there will e no oil, all of a sudden? Your vague prediction of doom sounds a lot like most fundies and cults predictions about the end of time.

2) I never said everything was all right. I agree with Lomborg and others who do not believe Kyoto is a good idea, or that Gay marriage is more important than fundies shooting small children to death in the streets of the middle east. I believe the best course of action is to help the dev. world because they are going to be most impacted by GW, which I agree is occuring.

3) Ok, fine, but do not post an article critical of Lomborg when a) you have no idea of what the book is really about or what is in it or b) you do not want to discuss the fact that the criticism is an army of straw men.

4) OK, I really have no choice but to wait, do I? I still see no facts that back up your dire prediction, yet.

5) Great, clear. Lets discuss the oil article and its ramifications on public policy and our society. You start, and make as specific points as possible.

6) Actually, I can if we are discussing the article that was a criticism of Lomborgs book. Further, a lot of points and data brought up in the article posted recently are merely regurgitated littany of environmental groups, so the data is pertinent. I often like to cite Oliver Wendall Holmes book on Homeopathy in discussions of that subject despite the fact that it is over 160 years old. Same material, same arguments. Same thing here.

7) OK, you plan your life accordingly. I recommend stocking a bunker with plenty of nonperishable goods, a few solar panels, and lots of books. Meanwhile, I will finish grad school, start a family and plan for retirement. Lets see how many people you get to join in on the bunker idea.
 
Quasi said:
1) Many civilizations have ended, however the end was predicted from the viewpoint of their peak cultural achievements, and "end" is ambiguous. Societies change, and are absorbed, and are not static. In the country where I live, latin is still listed as one of the official national languages, and roman ruins are widespread. I suppose you believe that a worldwide energy crisis will end life as we know it. So be it, but the USA will still be there, it will be the developing nations who will die like moths in a fire.

The poorest parts of the world will fall off first. Africa has already been left for the dogs. The western world will be the last part to collapse.

Even in your scenario, we still have nuclear power, coal, etc, so not all energy will be out.

Uranium also runs out in 25 years, and nuclear power costs so much it is hardly worth the effort. Having said that, the US is still embarking on a new generation of nuclear power stations, because it has no alternative, because of the oil crash.


What exact time frame are we talking here? One day there will e no oil, all of a sudden? Your vague prediction of doom sounds a lot like most fundies and cults predictions about the end of time.

I think it would help if you actually read the article, which you clearly have not. The answers to these questions are there. "Peak oil" is about the point where demand begins to outstrip supply. After that there is oil left, but it gets more and more expensive.

I believe the best course of action is to help the dev. world because they are going to be most impacted by GW, which I agree is occuring.

Actually, I have spent too long concentrating on GW and not enough on this subject. GW on its own has the potential to bring down the modern world, but its effects are slow and indirect because it does not hit the economy first. By sharp contrast, the oil crash goes straight for the economic jugular and will affect us far more rapidly than GW. GW is like the second blow - kicking us in the head as we are still reeling from the oil crash.

3) Ok, fine, but do not post an article critical of Lomborg when a) you have no idea of what the book is really about or what is in it or b) you do not want to discuss the fact that the criticism is an army of straw men.

Let's just forget about Lomborg. It is a distraction.

4) OK, I really have no choice but to wait, do I? I still see no facts that back up your dire prediction, yet.

Eh?

You didn't read the article, did you? There is no shortage of reliable source data. This science is rock solid, and agress with things written recently in both Scientific American and New Scientist. If you are questioning the authors sources, please explain which source you are questioning and why you are questioning it.

6) Actually, I can if we are discussing the article that was a criticism of Lomborgs book.

You mentioned Lomborg as an attempt to refute the data in the article. That is a bit like citing Michael Behe as an attempt to refute the latest advances in viral evolution. You cannot cite old books as a rebuttal of this website. You have to deal with what the website actually says and where it gets its information from. Lomborg is not relevant.

Further, a lot of points and data brought up in the article posted recently are merely regurgitated littany of environmental groups....

That is simply not true.

I often like to cite Oliver Wendall Holmes book on Homeopathy in discussions of that subject despite the fact that it is over 160 years old. Same material, same arguments. Same thing here.

eh? :confused:

7) OK, you plan your life accordingly. I recommend stocking a bunker with plenty of nonperishable goods, a few solar panels, and lots of books. Meanwhile, I will finish grad school, start a family and plan for retirement. Lets see how many people you get to join in on the bunker idea.

I don't think the bunker solution is going to work. The problem is that if you stock up on food, you had better stock up on firearms and ammunition too or someone will steal your food.

My plans at the moment are to get out of the defence industry and go to University to study philosophy. When I finish my degree, then I will decide what to do next. Right now my priority is to make as many people as possible aware of what is happening so when the ◊◊◊◊ really starts hitting the fan they at least have had some time to prepare themselves psychologically for what they are facing.
 
JustGeoff said:


FACT 1) There are no more large virgin oilfields waiting to be found.
FACT 2) Current oilfields are already approaching peak production.
FACT 3) The whole of the modern world is COMPLETELEY dependent on oil.
FACT 4) No action is being taken to prevent this catastrophe.
FACT 5) This is happening NOW, not at some vague future date. It is not just your children who will witness the oil crash. YOU WILL.


Geoff,

Are you sure about all those facts?

About FACT 1. I do not think the whole world has been explored for oil yet. Much of the planet is underwater and unexplored because the cost of extraction would be too high for the time being. One whole continent is untouched for the moment.

Oil in the Antarctic:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/antarctica.html

The call for an environmental protocol to the Antarctic Treaty came after scientists discovered large deposits of natural resources such as coal, natural gas and offshore oil reserves in the early 1980s. Antarctica is considered to be part of the theoretical super-continent known as Gondwanaland, which separated near the end of the Paleozoic era and consisted of South America, Africa and Australia. And, because it once was completely covered in vegetation, many scientists believe it may hold one of the last supergiant oil fields yet to be discovered.

About FACT 2. Current oil extraction technology is not very efficient. Very few wells go dry, they just become unprofitable after the easy extraction of the first 40% of their contents. Some cannot be recovered with existing technology.

http://www.hydro.com/en/our_business/oil_energy/exploration/always_more.html

Declining production on a Norwegian oilfield does not mean that the oil has run out, but that the costs of recovering it have gradually outstripped the revenues. So what do we need to do to squeeze the last drops of oil out of the field?
Well, we are not dealing with small volumes here. When the last production well has been closed and the platform abandoned, some 30 to 60 percent of the oil remains in the reservoir because it is too difficult – or costly – to retrieve it.

FACTS 3 and 4. When oil really gets expensive, people will start to find alternatives. Financial motive can drive new alternatives.

FACT 5. Many other types of crash could also happen. An oil crash will be rough. But the oil will not disappear overnight.
 
Hello doubt.

About FACT 1. I do not think the whole world has been explored for oil yet. Much of the planet is underwater and unexplored because the cost of extraction would be too high for the time being. One whole continent is untouched for the moment.

Oil in the Antarctic:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/antarctica.html

There is no real prospect of finding lots of deep ocean oil because the deep ocean does not provide the right geological conditions.

Antarctica does remain unexplored, but extracting any oil found there is likely to be very expensive anyway.

Most of the oil industry is actually in agreement with the claim that there are no major new oil reserves waiting to be discovered.

It is possible that antarctic oil exists in reasonable quantities. My question to you is this : if it does, who gets it, and how does it affect world politics?


About FACT 2. Current oil extraction technology is not very efficient. Very few wells go dry, they just become unprofitable after the easy extraction of the first 40% of their contents. Some cannot be recovered with existing technology.

http://www.hydro.com/en/our_busines...lways_more.html


quote:
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Declining production on a Norwegian oilfield does not mean that the oil has run out, but that the costs of recovering it have gradually outstripped the revenues. So what do we need to do to squeeze the last drops of oil out of the field?
Well, we are not dealing with small volumes here. When the last production well has been closed and the platform abandoned, some 30 to 60 percent of the oil remains in the reservoir because it is too difficult – or costly – to retrieve it.

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It is likely to remain too difficult to get at. If the price rises so high that it becomes profitable to extract, the effects on the the modern world of an oil price that high is terminal.

FACTS 3 and 4. When oil really gets expensive, people will start to find alternatives. Financial motive can drive new alternatives.

You are another person who needs to actually read the article. All these objections are examined in detail, and the arguments are backed up with hard data.


FACT 5. Many other types of crash could also happen. An oil crash will be rough. But the oil will not disappear overnight.

I'd like to hear what you have to say when you have actually read the article. This is an accidental strawman because you do not know what the article says.

Geoff.
 
"GROWTH IN OIL RESERVES since 1980 is an illusion caused by belated corrections to oil-field estimates. Backdating the revisions to the year in which the fields were discovered reveals that reserves have been failing because of a steady decline in newfound oil (blue)."

OK, lets start here. Reserves have been increasing because our ability to extract from existing wells, combined with a dramatic increase in offshore drilling, and an increased use of natural gas, etc. The author disagrees with every official source, including Petroconsultants of Geneva (whom they are associated with BTW,) Saudi Arabia, World Oil and others. They claim there is no way that predictions P90 or other estimates can remain stable. What they do not realize is that those estimates can and do change based on better data and better technology. Or do you again, think that analytical methods and or extraction methods are static?
These figures are also backed up by the US Dept. of Energy as well. See their official web site.
"We can predict the remaining oil...." graph has no specific timeline for oil production. They are keeping it vague deliberately? Or maybe they just forgot?
There is no discussion regarding the now relatively cheap production of shale oil. This is critical when discussing oil reserves. Why have they left it out?
I really do not see a lot of pertinent data on their web site, they leave out huge gaps even in the petrol subject area which is their specialty. Why?
Another point, virtually no one, in any field canmake accurate predictions greater than ten years. Recently, a french company invented solar panels which when enter commercial production will be competitive with FF even without gov. subsidies. Again, the doom and gloom crowd is put in a tight spot. These two must prove oil will run out in less than 50 years. All I see are vague charts and second guessing of official sources, one of which they even work for and or generated the very data they question.
I still have my doubts.
 
This has at least been an educational experience, but I do have projects and things to attend to. I spent a lot of time here this week. Until next post.
 
Jon_in_london said:


It is? By whom? When?

Lomborg is politically-motivated and very short on accurate facts. He has become a figure not unlike Michael Behe - a person who is taken seriously only by those who approach it looking for someone to provide support for a fundamentally flawed position. Behe will continue to be quoted by intelligent-design proponents and Lomborg will continue to be quoted by right-wingers who do not like the environmentalist movement. But as far as the scientists themselves are concerned, Behe and Lomborg are treated as something they should not be asociated with. Lomborg is a statistician anyway. (lies, damned lies and statistics....)

http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/lomborg121201.asp
 
Lomborg is politically-motivated and very short on accurate facts. He has become a figure not unlike Michael Behe
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed a strong resemblance between the arguments of Lomborg and the arguments of Creationists.
 
JustGeoff said:
This is easier for me than it is for most people, because I pretty
much accepted that the modern world was heading for a fairly
serious disaster a very long time ago, even though accepting it
nearly drove me over the edge. Now I am just glad that the lies
we have been expected to believe are being brought into the
open and the truth exposed.
Anything Into Oil

Yes, yes.
Just like a fundamentalist.
It's easy to believe, hard to know.
Knowledge requires work, belief only blind acceptance.

I've said it before, predictions become less accurate over time.
One cannot know all the possible future states of the universe.
 
pupdog said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed a strong resemblance between the arguments of Lomborg and the arguments of Creationists.

Yes, the onvalid cheap-shot comparison is a great way to avoid actually argueing his points.

Its funny, however, the one chapter in Lomberg's book that we are discussing isn't even really disputed by his harshest critics:

To quote justgeoff's own source:

"Energy
Energy expert David Nemtzow, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, says Lomborg wastes his time battling a straw man: Virtually no one in the contemporary environmental movement disputes that fossil fuels are abundant, Nemtzow argues; in fact, it's precisely their abundance and their impact on our ecosystems that's the trouble. "

Yeah, creationism going on there. :rolleyes:
 
kookbreaker said:


Yes, the onvalid cheap-shot comparison is a great way to avoid actually argueing his points.

Its funny, however, the one chapter in Lomberg's book that we are discussing isn't even really disputed by his harshest critics:

To quote justgeoff's own source:

"Energy
Energy expert David Nemtzow, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, says Lomborg wastes his time battling a straw man: Virtually no one in the contemporary environmental movement disputes that fossil fuels are abundant, Nemtzow argues; in fact, it's precisely their abundance and their impact on our ecosystems that's the trouble. "

Yeah, creationism going on there. :rolleyes:

"Fossil fuels" includes the very abundant coal. Nobody is saying that coal is going to run out.

I am not going to waste my time debunking lomborg. The warning signs that there is a real problem to be faced are clear. Peak oil production is occuring, or will occur within 5 - 10 years. Now we have a choice. Either we can prepare for this, or we can keep pretending it isn't really going to happen until it is too late to take action to soften the blow. Maybe some countries will continue to react differently to others to this threat. It will be very interesting if Europe responds by massive investment in renewable energy and the US responds by trying to use its military strength to control the remaining supplies. If this happens, who do you think will be best placed to survive the second half of the 21st century when the oil has run out completely?

http://www.after-oil.co.uk

20. Conclusions

Whether the system dynamics forecasts are accurate is a question merely of timing. If global economic collapse does not occur around 2050 it will before the century is out. So national planning for survival runs only the risk of being a little premature.

The required resources are limited and could be exhausted before the necessary survival infrastructure is in place. A British economy based on minimised energy requirements, maximum use of renewable energy and a revived coal industry for chemical manufacture will allow us to survive the 21st Century.

If the scope of the planning can be widened to include the European Union, competition between the member states will be reduced. Unfortunately, with impending global economic collapse, it will not be possible to include much more of the world in the plan. For example, the United States will see its energy-absorbing lifestyle disintegrate rapidly and in an attempt to maintain its economy will compete with Europe for resources.

We may have to unite in a United States of Europe to withstand the economic depredations of a USA wanting to secure more than its share of dwindling energy and other resources. Progress in alternative energy is currently more advanced in Europe, in wind farms and with bio-diesel available at filling stations. But if we put our own renewable resources in place in the next crucial 10 years or so, while at the same time re-organise our economy to use a quarter of our current energy requirements, we will provide a model for a second industrial revolution in Europe and renew our world leadership in ideas.

Every cloud has a silver lining. :)
 
JustGeoff said:

There is no real prospect of finding lots of deep ocean oil because the deep ocean does not provide the right geological conditions.
Actually unknown, but yes strongly postulated.


Antarctica does remain unexplored, but extracting any oil found there is likely to be very expensive anyway.
Perhaps a bit more trouble than Prudhoe Bay but technology advances.


Most of the oil industry is actually in agreement with the claim that there are no major new oil reserves waiting to be discovered.
An ad populem problem. Again, actually unknown.


It is possible that antarctic oil exists in reasonable quantities. My question to you is this : if it does, who gets it, and how does it affect world politics?
You predict it will be more of a political problem than the current middle east mess?


It is likely to remain too difficult to get at. If the price rises so high that it becomes profitable to extract, the effects on the the modern world of an oil price that high is terminal.
It is more likely that too many variables are involved to back up this statement.

FACT 2) Current oilfields are already approaching peak production.
FACT 3) The whole of the modern world is COMPLETELEY dependent on oil.
FACT 4) No action is being taken to prevent this catastrophe.
FACT 5) This is happening NOW, not at some vague future date. It is not just your children who will witness the oil crash. YOU WILL.
Fact 2: "Approaching" still operative.

Fact 3: As we sit, reasonably true. Fusion energy would be nice, especially if it could be used to fuel autos.

Fact 4: However, I'd say a number of very talented individuals & groups are at least considering the problems with an eye towards viable solutions.

Fact 5: Unkown, but yes strongly postulated, by some, at the moment.


For myself, I worry a lot more about say, a new strain of airborne-spread ebola/marburg, or a few maniacs with crop-dusters & weaponized anthrax. Or another earth-killer comet. :(
 
JustGeoff said:


"Fossil fuels" includes the very abundant coal. Nobody is saying that coal is going to run out.


Not Lomberg's arguement. He was pointing out the levels of supply in all fuels. The counter-arguement that you posted claimed he was beating up a strawman because "Virtually no one in the contemporary environmental movement disputes that fossil fuels are abundant". Now you are making the guy countering Lomberg a liar. Had you read Lomberg you would note his comments about coal are fairly minimal. He discussed oil and shale oil.

Sorry, this is starting to sound like the "Doomsday of the week club."
 
Alternates for oil dependent products are being developed.

Check out this link about plants that have been genetically modified to produce plastic.

http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/botany/botany_map/articles/article_28.html

The same goes for fertilizer and medicines. People know about the eventual exhaustion of oil and efforts are underway to replace the need.

Fact 3: As we sit, reasonably true. Fusion energy would be nice, especially if it could be used to fuel autos.
Cars will be electric. It's inevitable. efforts are underway to make fuel cells affordable. (the same device which is used to generate electricity on the space shuttle)
Lubricants can made synthetically oil can, and will be replaced.
 

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