octuplets

[Darth Rotor]

When did Iraq become the great job market?

It's a Bush sponsored federal jobs program that landed in Obama's lap, one he does not have to invent, and thus his conservative critics can't bust his balls over it.

It started about the time Rummy's "short little war" became "what we really meant to do was import democracy into Iraq at the point of a bayonet, the WMD's were just part of the ad campaign."

Note that importing democracy into Germany is still an ongoing proposition, else why the bayonets?

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

1. Suleman has yet to reveal how the babies were conceived, or which clinic or doctor was involved -- her publicist said she has "reserved that part of her story" for now, and Kaiser said it was not involved in the conception.
   
2. Typically, doctors use one of two procedures. One is in vitro fertilization, whereby doctors combine eggs and sperm in a laboratory, creating embryos, and transfer a small number into the uterus. The second is intrauterine insemination, in which doctors stimulate the ovaries to produce eggs and follow that with artificial insemination.
   
3. In both procedures, doctors said, they work with two to three embryos, or four at the very most. But never eight.
   
4. For a woman in her early 30s, like Suleman, ASRM guidelines for in vitro fertilization call for no more than two transferred embryos.
   
5. David C. Magnus, director of the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics, said that if the octuplets were produced through in vitro fertilization, it would spotlight the poorly regulated infertility and reproduction field.
   
6. "This is a huge problem," Magnus said. "You've got a virtually unregulated marketplace with tort law serving as regulation in the U.S."
   
7. The professional organizations should take a stricter line with doctors and clinics, he said. "They've been very loath to take that action."
   
8. But "if you leave it up to the marketplace," he added, "there will be abuses."

Point 1. How the babies were conceived. Used to be an interesting method called ****in' in these parts. My thanks to science for making her desire to be famous, infamous, and on TV possible.

Frankenfetus, times 8, at your cervix.

Point 2. Doctors would, in the old days, now and again nail their female patients. At least in that morally questionable endeavour, the octuplets weren't the typical outcome.

Point 3. Never say never again, doc.

Point 4. Captain Jack Sparrow and I note that the "guidelines" are not hard and fast rules.

Point 5 through 8. Marketplace for babies. Human trafficking for fifty, Doc.

Which is it, folks:

Can implies ought?
or
Ought implies can?

Did someone get this bass ackwards in California?

Oh, wait, California.

Explanations no longer required.

DR

 

[Skeptic Guy]

AKA "mentally ill".

So is it ethical for a doctor to implant a mentally ill woman with a fertilized egg, let alone 8 of them?

I think this is a very good point. Putting aside whether it was appropriate to implant eight fertilized eggs, what responsibility does the fertility doctor to consider the patient's mental stability when providing his services?

From every source, it seems like she's got a bit of a problem and may not be fit to be a mother to 14 children...or one.

 

[Roma]

What responsibility does the fertility doctor have?

Well there are plastic surgeons who continue to do surgery on their patients until they no longer look human eg. Michael Jackson.
There are doctors who remove the little toes of women so they can wear "fashionable" shoes.
There are dentists who drill holes in patients teeth and implant diamonds, etc. .

The difference between those practices and fertility practices is that other innocent non-consenting lives are involved. That is the reason some regulation ought to be implemented.

If the "mom" is not mentally competent I hope the doctor is royally sued, just to set an example for the rest.

 

[I Ratant]

All fourteen (14) of this baby factories output were artificially implanted!
Smart, with-it, responsible, this gal is not!

 

[BPSCG]

What responsibility does the fertility doctor have?

Legally? I bet very little.

Ethically? A lot, I would say, but enforcing ethics is a pretty tough contract.

If the "mom" is not mentally competent I hope the doctor is royally sued, just to set an example for the rest.

Sued for what?

Happy birthday, Roma!

 

[Roma]

Sued for what?
Endangering the lives of the mother and the babies.
Medical negligence if any one of those babies is harmed due to this multiple implantation.
I wish I were a lawyer, I'm sure there are plenty of other things this doctor could be sued for.

 

[quarky]

The famous 1000 lb woman could possibly bang out ten babies.
Eight is becoming yesterday's news.

Ten babies would have the potential of playing a real basketball game without having to call any friends. It would be more metric than eight.

You can't put a price on a good freak show.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

NBC's Today show is doing an interview with the mom on Monday. They aired part of it today. From what I saw, she had all these children because she loves children and wants to have lots of them. She claims that she will raise these kids without public assistance, but I can't think how. I did not hear if she had any financial assistance with the fertility treatments.

 

[a_unique_person]

The famous 1000 lb woman could possibly bang out ten babies.
Eight is becoming yesterday's news.

Ten babies would have the potential of playing a real basketball game without having to call any friends. It would be more metric than eight.

You can't put a price on a good freak show.

Quintland http://www.quintland.com/start.html

That's how you do it right

 

[Hooloovoo]

The CNN website has an article about Ms. Suleman up today. In it she claims six embryos were implanted, and two of them split into twins. So, according to this article, there are two separate pairs of identical twins along with four non identical babies. What are the chances of that happening? Is that even possible?

Even if that did turn out to be true, six embryos is still far to many to implant at once. Bad for the babies, bad for the mom.

 

[shuize]

NBC's Today show is doing an interview with the mom on Monday. They aired part of it today. From what I saw, she had all these children because she loves children and wants to have lots of them. She claims that she will raise these kids without public assistance, but I can't think how. I did not hear if she had any financial assistance with the fertility treatments.

Single mother. Fourteen kids. Parents one million dollars in debt.

Math is not really my strongest subject, but I sort of see a problem with the "no public assistance" plan.

 

[Roma]

So this mom thinks that if she goes to college and gets a Masters Degree in Counselling (is that really a degree?) she will be able to support her whole family, that will now include octuplets which will likely include ones with varying disabilities.
My older daughter has an Advanced Degree in Psychology and can barely pay off her student loans and support her one child.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Someone told me that she gets somewhere around $160K in disability per annum for an injury when she was in law enforcement. A lot, but still not enough for 14 kids.

And will that get reduced if she gets a job?

 

[Roma]

Someone told me that she gets somewhere around $160K in disability per annum for an injury when she was in law enforcement.

What kind of injury? Wasn't a head injury was it? that would explain everything.

 

[slingblade]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29110391/

Nadya Suleman, the mother of the octuplets born last month, gets $490 a month in food stamps, the Los Angeles Times reported Monday evening. Three of her first children also get federal supplemental security income because they are disabled, the Times reported.

Suleman's publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed the information.

"In Nadya's view, the money that she gets from the food stamp program ... and the resources disabilities payments she gets for her three children are not welfare," he said. "They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare.

Remember, reality is limited to what you allow yourself to admit.

 

[Edges]

"They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare.

Someone needs to buy that girl (I say "girl" because of her clear immaturity), a dictionary:

3. financial or other assistance to an individual or family from a city, state, or national government: Thousands of jobless people in this city would starve if it weren't for welfare.
4. (initial capital letter) Informal. a governmental agency that provides funds and aid to people in need, esp. those unable to work.
—Idiom
5. on welfare, receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need.

So the next question is, just what does she think welfare is? How can you twist the definition so that food stamps don't count as welfare?

Of course, she also thinks that a master's degree in anything will secure her a job with enough earnings to take care of 14 kids. With or without supplemental aid, she is clearly living in a dream world. Although, considering that she's managed to get what she wants up to this point, no wonder she can't see reality waiting to rain on her parade.

 

[BPSCG]

Suleman told NBC News correspondent Ann Curry in an interview that she was not receiving welfare. Furtney said Suleman didn't consider the food stamps and SSI to be welfare.

"In Nadya's view, the money that she gets from the food stamp program ... and the resources disabilities payments she gets for her three children are not welfare," he said. "They are part of programs designed to help people with need, and she does not see that as welfare."

Emphasis mine. If that isn't the definition of "welfare", then the word has no meaning.

During the interview with Curry, Suleman said, "I'm not receiving help from the government...

SSI - Supplemental Security Income (not to be confused with Social Security) is a program run by the U.S. government that pays money to people who are either over 65 years old or disabled and who are in severe financial need. The money comes out of the U.S. Treasury general fund (not out of the Social Security trust fund, as ignorant people often believe); in other words, it's money that is paid by taxpayers to poor people who cannot work due to age or disability. It is, in essence, government-mandated charity.

Food stamps also come from the U.S. government.

And when you qualify for SSI, you automatically qualify for medical welfare, known as Medicaid (not to be confused with Medicare). That comes from the U.S. and state governments.

If she doesn't understand this, then she is ignorant as well as stupid.

...I'm not trying to expect anything from anybody. just wanted to do it on my own.

Then at your children's next SSI redetermination of eligibility (happens at least once a year), tell the claims representative that you no longer wish to receive SSI payments for your children. (I worked as a Social Security claims rep for 13 years ending in 1988, and we processed applications for SSI, and did periodic redeterminations, so I claim some expertise in the matter).

Curry told Suleman that many people think she had the octuplets in the hope of making money off her story.

“That's funny how untrue that is,” Suleman said. “Money? Money is necessary to raise children. But it's — it's paper. It is paper. To me, it is superfluous in contrast to the importance of my kids.”

Then you won't be asking the government to give you any more of that "superfluous" money.

NBC chief medical editor Dr. Nancy Snyderman has estimated the cost of delivering the infants and caring for them until they are healthy enough to leave the hospital at $1.5 million to $3 million.

"I'm not trying to expect anything from anybody. just wanted to do it on my own." Good luck with that medical bill.

 

[Alt+F4]

She's obviously mentally ill, what I'm curious about is the doctor who performed the IVF. Did he know about the first six kids? Why did he implant so many embroys? Where did she get the money for this?

 

[BPSCG]

She's obviously mentally ill...

I don't think it's obvious at all. She seems to be woefully ignorant of where the money comes to pay for the care and feeding of her kids, and she certainly has spectacularly poor judgment. What do you base your diagnosis of mental illness on?

FWIW, she seems quite narcissistic - everything is about what she wants, not about what is best for her children. But there are lots of narcissistic people in the world; I don't think that necessarily qualifies as being mentally ill.