observation determins reality

[uruk]

I think I'm rich, therefore I am. hmmm...bank account still empty.

I observe myself as a incredible hunk of a man with a devastating
personality.........no still an ugly, lonely person repeadedly regected by women.

I have faith that I am an intelligent person.....hmmm I still don't
know what the hell you all are talking about.

wait, maybe I'm an idealogical construct of someone elses reality!

God! why did they have to observe me as a poor, ugly, lonely moron.

why does my reality have to have so many idiots in it?



edited:
God! why did they have to observe me as an idiot that can't tell
the difference between "post reply" and "post new thread"

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Greetings, Uruk! Now that you fully realize that Beingness won't give you the time of day, you can embark on a trip to improve your own circumstances. Rather liberating, isn't it?

~~ Paul

 

[BillyJoe]

Uruk,

If that is true, then that post of yours is actually my post but, hell, I don't identify with it at all.

BillyJoe.

 

[uruk]

unless....

quote:
(If that is true, then that post of yours is actually my post but, hell, I don't identify with it at all). quote


Unless your are also a construct of someone else reality.

Do we truely make our own choices or are we locked into
a path determined by that person who percieves us and we just think we are making our own choices?

We constructs don't seem to have a choice in the matter.

So welcome, fellow construct, to our predetermined existance.
It does have it's advantages, like the knowledge that we are absolved of any responsibilty for our actions. Any choice we make or anything we do is predetermined by the person who is percieving our existance. Take for instance what I did to that goat last night, not my fault. That is just the way I'm percieved.

Also, think about Good and evil. Can't have good without evil. So if they catch you for processing your wife into mulch through a woodchipper, don't worry, just tell them your doing your job to maintain the good and evil balance. Can't have the universal balance upset.

I mean, just think how boring this universe will be if everything was just good. Kind of like an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation (first season only)

The one question I have is what do we constructs do when
that who percieves us is not thinking about us.

you know, the old question of: If we slip on a banana peel and noone is around to see it, is it funny?

 

[BillyJoe]

wellisten uruk,

I don't know if you know who you are (do you really think you could be a construct?) but I know who I am and I am BillyJoe.

gooday BillyJoe

 

[uruk]

Quote:
wellisten uruk,

I don't know if you know who you are (do you really think you could be a construct?) but I know who I am and I am BillyJoe.

gooday BillyJoe

Quote:

Are you sure you really know? Or do you just think you know who you are because you are percieved to know who you are by that which percieves us. Confusing I know, But I'm a confused person
in a confusing world. But the two confusions cancell out so therefore I'm sure of what I know. Well, it works out mathmatically at least.

Checkout the latest issue of Scientific American
(Are we Holograms). Some Therorists say that our physical existance is a construct derived by the interaction of particles
and energy fields (electromagnetic, gravitational, etc.)
much the same as a hologram is a construct of interefering
photon fields or lightwaves.

So are we constructs? Yes we are. Is there a hindu thing happening with the "dreamer and we are the dream" thing?
I do not presume to be intelligent enough figure that one out.

All I know, BillyJoe, is that the Matrix.....oops! I've said too much.
Where is that blue pill?

 

[BillyJoe]

uruk,

Sounds really good uruk.

Now all you have to do is show how that dreamer
imbues his dream with consciousness.



billyjoe.

 

[uruk]

Quote
Now all you have to do is show how that dreamer
imbues his dream with consciousness.
Quote


Well If I knew that, I would be the god of the Hindus.
Fear Me! oh Baldheaded, robed ones! Oh, wait those are Bhuddists, Oh well FEAR ME ANYWAY!!!!!

I would also be that guy who claims he knows the answer to everything, you know, the Pope.

 

[BillyJoe]

uruk,



Well then let's just say that we are not a dream
that a dreamer has imbued with consciousness
(unless and until there is evidence for that view of
course) and that we are therefore not constructs
but uruk and billyjoe, conscious beings.



billyjoe

 

[uruk]

Hey BillyJoe,

If that was true, then we as individual, concious beings would responsible for our own actions and exist in a indifferent universe filled with unexpected wonders and uncertain futures.

But as liberal Americans, we know there is no such thing as personal responsibility. The court system knows it's not my fault
that I accidentaly shot my mother-in-law fourtyseven times stopping to reload twice. It was latent anger due to 400 years of racial oppression to my ancestors aggravated by my low economic standard of living because I can't get a good paying job due too all the substandard education, gutted by special interest groups, that I missed because of my drug addiction which is caused by hatred for my parents and their shoddy parenting skills and the mental abuse I recieved from my cat.

Besides, she had an abortion and it's ok to kill her because my god says she is a murderer.


Not to mention, think of all the unemployed pop psycologists, defense attourneys, high school councelors, priests, Gurus, Democratic Party members, and Republican Presidents.

Also think of all the guilt we would feel if we were responsible for our own actions. No deity to blame when the house we built next to an active volcano burns down when it erupts. No demon or
psycological reason to blame when we knowingly do something wrong. No god to blame if you've been sitting on your ass doing
nothing but praying for something and not getting it.

No, I's say the best evidence that we are a construct of a dreamer
is Michael Jackson.

UrUk

 

[uruk]

oops

 

[BillyJoe]

UrUk,

Being conscious does not imply free will.

It is only necessary that we have the illusion of free will and that the illusion is so good as to be indistinguishable from the real thing. In other words, as long as we seem to have free will and act as if we have free will, it doesn't actually matter that we do not have free will. The assumption of free will feeds into the myriad factors that cause us to do what we do so that it becomes truly impossible to recognize that it really doesn't exist.

We hold people responsible for their actions even though they aren't.

BillyJoe.

 

[NoDeity]

No deity to blame when the house we built next to an active volcano burns down when it erupts.

I think I get altogether too much blame.

We hold people responsible for their actions even though they aren't.

I agree. However, I suppose that just as there is a compatibilist definition of "free will", there must also be a compatibilist definition of "personal responsibility". I haven't read anything about that, though.

Here's what makes sense to me at this time: I am hardwired for self-preservation (and perhaps self-improvement) and I try to tweak the system toward that end. We all do. When I see that someone or something is doing things that are detrimental to me or to those I love, I want that part of the system to be "adjusted" in such a way that I no longer perceive it as a threat.

Whether or not the offending part of the system was, at the time of the offense, free to do something other than what it did is irrelevant. I justify the "adjustment" on the basis of my desire to protect myself and those I love.

That, I think, is the basis of law and morality in a deterministic universe.

 

[uruk]

Hey BillyJoe.

Quote
Being conscious does not imply free will.
Quote

I think it does. Because if you are conscious then you are self aware. And if you are self aware then you are aware of your actions. Therefor if you are aware of your actions you can choose to do or not to do, and choice is really what "free will" is about.

Even in the christianity mythology, the "free will" that god gave us is the choice to choose to worship him (and get into heaven)
or not choose him (and burn in hell). Not much of a choice come to think of it.

You can argue that animals are conciouse but not self aware.
but I would have to dissagree. I think that animals have some degree of self awareness. I've had thirteen cats at onetime.
You can train a cat to do something or respond to a command.
But it will do it only when it "feels "like it. You give it a specific, previously rehearsed, command. Sometimes it will do it , other times it will just stare blankly at you. That seems to imply that
the cat is aware of your command, It knows what you want it to do because its done it before. It also implies that the cat is aware of itself because it chooses not to do what you want it to do and decides to just stare at you with that insipid blank stare
as you make a fool of yourself jumping and screaming.

Now, about personal responsibility.

True enough. Maybe we can't hold people accountable for thier actions, but we can hold them accountable for thier choices.

"Free will" is like eating at an restaraunt. You can't order whats not on the menu, but your free to choose anything on the menu.

You could argue that even our choices are determined by outside influences, and that is true for most people. As I mentioned in a past post, we have plenty of excuses to choose from. But at some point in your life you are made aware of constructive and destructive behaiviour, (good and bad) and you are faced with a choice. The easy path, of status quo, selfdestruction, and environmental recrimination. or the hard path of change, resistance to upbringing and social/economic status and personal responsibility.

Iv'e seen both extremes. Many friends who have givin in or defied thier situation and condition.

A drug addict can choose to continue in thier addiction and succumb to the external influence of the chemical dependancy (easy path)or choose to detoxify and resist the influences that made him an addict(hard path). I've been there and seen it happen to other people.

Or a racial minority of a low socio/economic status can choose to become a drug dealer or they can become a rap musician, which doesn't seen to require any talent.

Or a catholic priest can choose to follow his faith or fondle the altar boy. the paths are laid out, but the choice is his.

Sometimes it seems we are face with a single choice. but we are still free to not make that choice even if it means the end of our own existance. Suicide is something that is uniquely exhibited by humans and lemmings

So it is true that are our actions are determined by the path we
take. but it is we who freely choose that path. And in that , we can can be held responsible.

 

[swstephe]

Free choice?

I think the definition of "free will" is the classical Protestant Christian one. Let us take your resturant menu example:

1) perhaps my choice of what food is pre-determined by my personal tastes, upbringing, psychological mood and other factors at the time in such that a scientist with enough research money could predict the exact dish I would order.
2) perhaps I just pick a dish completely at random. If I were to ask someone else to roll the dice and select the die-roll to dish mapping, that would be random enough for me.

But notice that in (1), I did not have a choice. Even if I made a concious effort to choose something different, my decision to choose something different and the optional choice could also be considered a factor of outside influences. The harder I tried to choose something other than what I'm programmed to choose, the closer I get to (2).

In (2), I did not have a choice in the matter either. Luck, fate, and the person who rolled the die were outside factors that selected my dish, not me. My will had nothing to do with it.

I might have a free selection of options to choose from, but I would eventually tend toward predictability or randomness.

My computer is just like your cats. I tell it to do something, but sometimes it doesn't do it. I'm a programmer, so I know how the computer works and I know that what I told it to do was indeed what it should have done. I don't conclude it has a free will because it "chose" to do something different. I would immediately look for other outside influences, (like somebody spilled their frapaccino on our network server).

For me to have free will and not my computer, I have to come up with something to differentiate us. But, (and this might be difficult), if I find something to differentiate us, then it is, in fact, an outside influence which has caused me to have the will, and that, perhaps, brings me back to (1), my mind is the product of outside influences. My mind may be so complex that the "chaos effect" shows up, meaning that mere mortals with finite measurement equipment could never predict my next thought, but it is still theoretically predictable.

The classical Protestant Christian basis for free will is that, without it, there would be no responsibility. I can't accept that. If you had a staff of robots that behaved 100% predictably, and one of them fails to follow a pre-determined behavior, you would just re-program. If your robots were rational, self-preserving, and self-adjusting, you could simply let it know the consequences of its actions or present it with rewards and punishments. As an act of self-preservation, it would naturally, (and predictably), adjust its programming. If it refused to adjust, (like your cats), you could assume any of several external factors:

1) it didn't accept your terms as valid (belief)
2) it didn't think the effort was worth gaining the reward
3) it didn't think the effort was worth avoiding the punishment
4) it preferred the immediate reward over the long-term reward

I have come to accept that my subjective feeling of "free will" is an illusion, a useful biological adaption, but that doesn't mean I have to give up my illusions ... but maybe I was just brought up that way.

 

[BillyJoe]

uruk,

I think [being conscious] does [imply free will]. Because if you are conscious then you are self aware. And if you are self aware then you are aware of your actions. Therefor if you are aware of your actions you can choose to do or not to do, and choice is really what "free will" is about.

The question is do we really make choices? If so, how do we make choices? What possible mechanism could there be to enable us to make choices?

At the quantum level we have random chance and the rest is all mechanism. Where is free will?

Even in the christianity mythology, the "free will" that god gave us is the choice to choose to worship him (and get into heaven) or not choose him (and burn in hell). Not much of a choice come to think of it.

There is no evidence for heaven or hell or even for a deity.
Hell, there's not even evidence for free will or choices.

You can argue that animals are conciouse but not self aware.
but I would have to dissagree. I think that animals have some degree of self awareness.

Well, I would not argue that. Anything that is conscious must have some degree of self-awareness which really just means "conscious of self"

"Free will" is like eating at an restaraunt. You can't order whats not on the menu, but your free to choose anything on the menu.

Well, you are nearly there.
The menu restricts what you end up ordering (or, in common parlance, what you "choose" to order).
Now maybe there are other restrictions as well.........

You could argue that even our choices are determined by outside influences, and that is true for most people. As I mentioned in a past post, we have plenty of excuses to choose from. But at some point in your life you are made aware of constructive and destructive behaiviour, (good and bad) and you are faced with a choice. The easy path, of status quo, selfdestruction, and environmental recrimination. or the hard path of change, resistance to upbringing and social/economic status and personal responsibility.

You are getting closer.
But how do we choose between good and bad?
What is the mechanism that enables us to choose?

Given extreme enough circumstances, we can all be driven to kill. It just requires the inputs to be strong enough in that direction.

A drug addict can choose to continue in thier addiction and succumb to the external influence of the chemical dependancy (easy path)or choose to detoxify and resist the influences that made him an addict(hard path). I've been there and seen it happen to other people.

Did he choose to detoxify or was he lucky enough to have favourable inputs. Perhaps someone was in the right place at the right time to influence him in the direction of detoxifying.

Or a racial minority of a low socio/economic status can choose to become a drug dealer or they can become a rap musician, which doesn't seen to require any talent.

Both drug dealing and rap dancing require talent. I, for example cannot do either (you obviously could do either because you think it is so easy ). If you have talent for rap dancing and your life circumstances head you in that direction, rap dancing becomes much more likely than drug dealing. If your talents and life circumstances are different you may find yourself dealing in drugs.

Or a catholic priest can choose to follow his faith or fondle the altar boy. the paths are laid out, but the choice is his.

Has it ever occurred to you that the paths are laid out right to the final "choice". What sort of "choice" would that be then if, at the very end, there is only one thing left to do?......

Sometimes it seems we are face with a single choice. but we are still free to not make that choice even if it means the end of our own existance. Suicide is something that is uniquely exhibited by humans and lemmings

So here we are left with a single choice. This, of course means no choice at all. So you want to invent another choice - to not choose. Sorry, I think your language is defeating you, uruk.

At the end of all the influences on you, the final neurone fires and you kill yourself or it doesn't fire and you don't kill yourself.

BTW, you are wrong about lemmings.

So it is true that are our actions are determined by the path we
take. but it is we who freely choose that path. And in that , we can can be held responsible.

uruk, there is no free will and no choices.
However the illusion of free will is so real that we live and act as if we do have free will and make choices. I know I do. And I hold people responsible for their actions even though I know that they are just following the path laid out by quantum chance and mechanism. Did I choose this? Hell no, this is just the way I am as a result of my hard-wiring, software, memory stores and present inputs. Do I feel I choose this? Yes, of course and it's so convincing that I run with it even though I know that it's not true.

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[DrMatt]

I think I'm rich, therefore I am. hmmm...bank account still empty.

I observe myself as a incredible hunk of a man with a devastating
personality.........no still an ugly, lonely person repeadedly regected by women.

I have faith that I am an intelligent person.....hmmm I still don't
know what the hell you all are talking about.

wait, maybe I'm an idealogical construct of someone elses reality!

God! why did they have to observe me as a poor, ugly, lonely moron.

why does my reality have to have so many idiots in it?



edited:
God! why did they have to observe me as an idiot that can't tell
the difference between "post reply" and "post new thread"

It seems you've just discovered the difference between evidence and revelation.

 

[fishbob]

I hate when this happens. A perfectly silly thread worthy of a grin or two devolves into a serious discussion with lots of thought provoking and stuff. Now my brain hurts.

 

[uruk]

hello all!

quote:
In (2), I did not have a choice in the matter either. Luck, fate, and the person who rolled the die were outside factors that selected my dish, not me. My will had nothing to do with it.
Quote:

But you did choose to let the other person determine you choice
by random means.

quote:
I would immediately look for other outside influences, (like somebody spilled their frapaccino on our network server).
quote:

I spilled frapaccino on my cat and it produced the desired results.
So there is alot to say for stimulus/response. So it appears to me
that we are just a construct of extremely complex stimulus/response behaiviors. hmmmm...,OH God! we are just really screwed up ameobas!

quote:
I have come to accept that my subjective feeling of "free will" is an illusion, a useful biological adaption, but that doesn't mean I have to give up my illusions ... but maybe I was just brought up that way.
Quote:

But you still recognise that you could go against your upbringing and choose to believe otherwise. If you so wished of course.


Quote:
The question is do we really make choices? If so, how do we make choices? What possible mechanism could there be to enable us to make choices?

At the quantum level we have random chance and the rest is all mechanism. Where is free will?
Quote:

Then in a sense everything is predetermined (at least in the macroscopic sense) everything that happens in the universe is governed by physical laws. Every subatomic particle interacts with each other according to set rules. And human behaiviors
are determined by set biological programing and external influences which are determined by behaiviours of other humans and organizims and environmental forces which follow the above mentioned physical laws. Hmmm......everthing we have ever done and everything we will ever do is determined by this increadibly complex system.. Ahhh but there's Hiesenberg's uncertainty
principal....but that only applies to sub-sub atomic scale.
But what if an electron of sufficient energy randomly quantum jumps into an atom in a nuron that causes a signal to fire
which activates a pattern of nurons which contain a memory
which combines with a new experiance pattern being laid down in my brain via the hippocampus which is processed by my frontal lobe which causes a thought that drives me to throw frappacino on my cat.
There is your mechaninzm for choice. the Hisenburg uncertainy
principal! And quantum uncertainy is free. Well, I have never recieved a bill.

quote:
But how do we choose between good and bad?
What is the mechanism that enables us to choose?
quote:

I guess I mean what is benefical to survival and what is not
And see above.

quote:
Did he choose to detoxify or was he lucky enough to have favourable inputs. Perhaps someone was in the right place at the right time to influence him in the direction of detoxifying.
quote:

Well in my case, I suffered my addiction alone. As far as I know,
I kept it a secret from from those I came in to contact with.
One day I just got fed up with the constant inibriation and dependancy and decided to stop. Cold turkey. Alone. The hardest thing I ever did.

quote:
Both drug dealing and rap dancing require talent. I, for example cannot do either (you obviously could do either because you think it is so easy )
quote:

Your problems are over. Follow my patented "rap song" formula
and you too can be a rap star. just follow the pre-written lyrics
and choose (freely) the appropriate selection which fit the song.

I'm a (a) Mo'Fo, (b) Gangsta', (c) Internet specialist', from (a) Compton, (b) Eastside, (c) Brentwood, and I be (a) hangin', (b)Chillin',(c) Comatose, with my (a) Posse, (b) Bi-atch, (c) lawyers.
bustin (a) caps (b) heads, (c) a latte', in (a) yo ass, (b) yo mama, (c) my crotch, makin' (a ) benjamins, (b) blunts, (c) 410k plans,
because I'm so (a) fly, (b) Ill, (c) feduciarily liquid,.....etc.

See how fersheezzy mon easy that was weezey shizzle......drizzle... bibble.....dribble.

quote:
Has it ever occurred to you that the paths are laid out right to the final "choice". What sort of "choice" would that be then if, at the very end, there is only one thing left to do?......
quote:

Sounds like predeteriminism to me.

quote:
So here we are left with a single choice. This, of course means no choice at all. So you want to invent another choice - to not choose. Sorry, I think your language is defeating you, uruk.
quote:

Your right. my only choice was to create another choice. And as the great pointy eared one said. "There are always possibilities."

quote:
BTW, you are wrong about lemmings.
quote:

I have to disagree, The Encyclopedia Brittanica describes Lemmings as "The sorriest bunch of self-loathing, drama mongering rodentia ever to crawl upon four legs." and that
"after going bankrupt in a bad realestate deal in which they
lost half thier island due to a leverage buyout. Each successive generation has been drivin to such depression and melancholy
that they commit mass suicide in order so that thier bloated carcasses will clogg the sewer lines and causes the toilets of the Holiday Inn, built on thier lost land, to back up."

Quote:
uruk, there is no free will and no choices.
Quote:

O.K., So you've convinced me. There is no "free will". I guess I had no choice in the matter.

Quote:
Did I choose this? Hell no, this is just the way I am as a result of my hard-wiring, software, memory stores and present inputs. Do I feel I choose this? Yes, of course and it's so convincing that I run with it even though I know that it's not true.
Quote:

So there IS evidence that we are constructs of someone elses dream!


I'm going to write all this down in my Homeopathic Journal.
A Homeopathic journal is where you get a paper and continually
divide it in half untill only the resonance of it remains in the surrounding air, but you have to be sure not to disturb the air
in which the resonance exists.

O.K. ....there....is...no....free...willl... there. ACHOOOOO!!! oh darn.

 

[BillyJoe]

uruk,

I don't mind you joking around but you should not use it to hide the fact that you are wrong .

Okay, I apologize for stating my opinions as if they are fact, sorry about that, it is a bad habit. I get sick of using "IMO" everytime I state my opinion.

But I have to correct one misunderstanding: When I said "quantum chance" I meant the same as your "quantum uncertainty". But if this is the source of free will, you need to show how flipping a coin is free will. In your brain, that final neuron (there is actually no such thing, I just made that up to shorten the explanation of "mechanism") may have equal positive and negative inputs and then a quantum fluctuation might cause it to fire or not fire. How is this free will?

Oh, and you are still wrong about lemmings

regards,
BillyJoe