Merged Now What?

[abaddon]

So what ? I have a friend who lives and works in Australia.
I have another friend who lives in Taiwan and trains prospective airline pilots, he used to be a 747 Captain.

Without visas? Free to travel and settle?

It's not free, it's tax funded.
Same service could be achieved by treaty and invoices to the UK government and vice versa when it's a foreign country's citizen.

Treaties which do not exist and cannot even be negotiated until Brexit is formally invoked. You are simply assuming that you will get the terms you want.

Doesn't warrant paying membership for that.
We could do a treaty.

Same again. The other side of any treaty must by definition agree the terms of said treaty.

Consumer protection is possible without paying £8.5bn a year in membership fees.

Yet part of your argument is that you can toss out those very standards.

Great news for customers of American mobile phone networks.

Like that one. Rip off the yanks with extortionate roaming charges.

Unless you happen to bank with a bank from outside the EU then you get clobbered.

Your banks WILL be outside the EU and they will get clobbered by your very own argument.

Isn't that what Interpol was created for ?

Sure. But it isn't terribly effective.

We lack our own voice at the WTO and given half a chance the EU would take our seat in NATO and the UN Security Council. So greater world influence ? I think not.

Correct. Britain has voted to have less world influence.

There was multinational corporate investment before the UK's entry into what was the EEC.

Guess where that will move to.

A stronger pound is not a good thing if you're looking to export and other countries can do it cheaper.

Unless you are proposing third world sweatshops, that will never work.

Council of Europe had already brought in the European Social Charter.
http://www.coe.int/en/web/turin-european-social-charter

So what?

Our workers rights exceed the EU standards anyway.

Not for much longer.

They did nothing about BSE in French beef.

Well let's look at that.
Total BSE cases worldwide:188,000
Total BSE cases in France: 900
Total BSE cases in Britain: 184,000

An example of Britain's finest of exports.

Cheaper food ? No. this is the organisation which dreamed up CAP subsidies to farmers including a fallow land subsidy, food mountains and tariffs on agricultural products from outside the EU.
Try and get New Zealand made butter or New Zealand lamb in a UK supermarket these days.

Without CAP or some version of it, farmers would cease farming.

Personally, I can go to my local supermarket and buy New Zealand lamb whenever I feel like it, ostrich and kangaroo also. Dunno what's wrong in the UK, but Brexit wont make that go away.

 

[Aepervius]

Correction, David Cameron was the biggest proponent of TTIP.
Just because he was elected, doesn't mean we wanted to endorse everything he stood for.

So when 51% want brexit "the voice of the country spoke" be damn the 49%, but when people elect a party and that party PM does something suddenly the goalpost are moved and suddenly the PM did not speak for everybody.

You have a very curious way to view events.

Cameron was the PM. Cameron set the politic of UK and by definition was UK's voice. You did not like it ? too bad ! 49% did not like brexit either but will have to live with that being UK's choice !

So I continue. UK was a big proponent of TTIP even when other country were pussy footing.

 

[Andy_Ross]

New Zealand Lamb?
Why do you want to bring meat from the other side of the world whrn you csn get British Lamb from just up the road?
Mind, without the CAP subsidy or a post exit equivalent there won't be any sheep farmers on the uplands, they can't make a profit without a subsidy so no sheep.
No sheep and our uplands will change, without grazing they will turn to scrub, bracken and woodlands.

 

[Klimax]

Correction, David Cameron was the biggest proponent of TTIP.
Just because he was elected, doesn't mean we wanted to endorse everything he stood for.

So any evidence May doesn't want TTIP or TTIP-like agreement? Any evidence Conservatives don't want it? Is there any relevant party which opposes it?

But at least it will be millions a year not billions.


Correct.

Wrong! Take percapita payment by Norway and apply it to GB. You will be lucky if your contribution will stay SAME before rebates.

Do you REALLY think that the only way to have peace in Europe is by surrendering democratic powers to an unelected body of Commissioners?

Because frankly, I see the tensions which that body is causing.

Also, do you remember former Foreign Policy Chief, Vice President of the Commission and High Representative of the EU, Baroness Catherine Ashton and her diplomatic negotiations with Ukraine and Russia ?
That went 'well' didn't it, she played her part in causing a civil war.

I know Putin is also at fault here, but let's not excuse the behaviour of the EU in this. It's been disgraceful and people died.

You are still peddling this idiotic nonsense about unelected commissioners. So when will you complain about your minister you didn't vote for? Or are you bloody hypocrite? When will you complain about all those bureaucrat's employed by your government making decisions about you, you didn't vote for either? Or is it another hypocrisy?

Also you are peddling grossly wrong stuff like about WHO caused war in Ukraine. Hint: It wasn't EU nor any of its diplomats. But this idiotic and wrong assertion reveals from where you are getting some of idiocies. Your even "partial" blame is wrong. Fully.

BTW: It is funny you still ignore inconvenient thing called European parliament...

 

[Andy_Ross]

For the first time in at least three years, British holidaymakers have found that a pound buys less than a euro at some bureaux de change.
On Tuesday this week, exchange desks at two airports were offering just 99 euro cents for a pound, according to foreign currency specialists Caxton FX.
MoneyCorp at Stansted was offering €0.9915, while ICE's rate at Luton was €0.990.
The pound hit its lowest level in three years on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37107945

 

[Aepervius]

BTW: It is funny you still ignore inconvenient thing called European parliament...

Or ignore that completely democratically elected (sarcasm) house of lord.

 

[GlennB]

New Zealand Lamb?
Why do you want to bring meat from the other side of the world whrn you csn get British Lamb from just up the road?
Mind, without the CAP subsidy or a post exit equivalent there won't be any sheep farmers on the uplands, they can't make a profit without a subsidy so no sheep.
No sheep and our uplands will change, without grazing they will turn to scrub, bracken and woodlands.

They'll revert slowly to their natural condition, rather as that other totally unnatural environment would - grouse moors

 

[Aepervius]

For the first time in at least three years, British holidaymakers have found that a pound buys less than a euro at some bureaux de change.
On Tuesday this week, exchange desks at two airports were offering just 99 euro cents for a pound, according to foreign currency specialists Caxton FX.
MoneyCorp at Stansted was offering €0.9915, while ICE's rate at Luton was €0.990.
The pound hit its lowest level in three years on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37107945

To be fair you should only exchange on emergency at airports bureau de change, they take a very large cut (as it shows : 15+% the pounds is more like 1.15 euro). Banks usually do not take as much, mine take 5% below 100 euro and 5 euro as fix cost no matter what above 100 euro.

 

[Airfix]

Well that's what you're claiming but that's not what the other countries in a similar position pay per capita, it's not what experts say (although I understand that Leave voters largely eschew expert opinion relying instead on their gut) and it's not what the EU itself says.

You're basing your costs solely on the EEA's costs completely ignoring the fact that the EEA is subsidised hugely by the EU which is why non-EU EEA members need to contribute far more than their proportion of the EEA "stationery budget"

With respect you are mistaken.

EEA related activities 7,914,000
EFTA/EU statistical cooperation 744,000
EFTA Council and horizontal activities 2,088,000
EU/EFTA and EFTA cooperation
programmes 2,710,000

http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/EFTA-Budget-748

Norway makes additional payments for other services, such as Europol and participation in the European Defence Agency and related battlegroups. The extra money that Norway gives to the EU is not related to EEA activities and is not required for tariff free trade.

Please take the time to read the EEA treaty.
http://www.efta.int/media/documents...t/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf

Norway does not have to contribute anywhere near the amount of money it chooses to give.
It has opted into projects that go beyond the remit of the EEA agreement of it's own accord. The remain camp have tried to deceive people into thinking that being in the EEA means doing exactly as Norway has done.
No, it means doing what Iceland has done.
And we would save billions.

You need to do more research.

 

[Spanx]

With respect you are mistaken.



http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/EFTA-Budget-748

Norway makes additional payments for other services, such as Europol and participation in the European Defence Agency and related battlegroups. The extra money that Norway gives to the EU is not related to EEA activities and is not required for tariff free trade.

Please take the time to read the EEA treaty.
http://www.efta.int/media/documents...t/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf

Norway does not have to contribute anywhere near the amount of money it chooses to give.
It has opted into projects that go beyond the remit of the EEA agreement of it's own accord. The remain camp have tried to deceive people into thinking that being in the EEA means doing exactly as Norway has done.
No, it means doing what Iceland has done.
And we would save billions.

You need to do more research.

Do you have a list of what the uk will or won't be contributing towards ?

 

[Airfix]

BTW: It is funny you still ignore inconvenient thing called European parliament...

Ah yes, MEPs, people who we elect to do the same sort of job Lords in this country do. Yet the people who aren't elected write the policies they vote on.

It's the reverse of the system we use in Westminster and the system we use in Westminster isn't brilliant, but at least we can kick out people who make policies we don't like.
If Commissioners were elected I'd be a lot less hostile towards the EU, but they're not.

There is an EU military policy and a military staff which works under the direct authority of High Representative / Vice President, (HRVP) Federica Mogherini, who leads the EEAS and chairs the Foreign Affairs Council and Defence.
http://eeas.europa.eu/csdp/structures-instruments-agencies/eu-military-staff/index_en.htm
This has no relation to free movement of goods labour capital or services.

The EU does not need a foreign policy chief or a military staff, it isn't a country.

 

[Airfix]

Do you have a list of what the uk will or won't be contributing towards ?

Tariff free movement of goods, capital and services, visa free movement of people and labour.

 

[Spanx]

Tariff free movement of goods, capital and services, visa free movement of people and labour.

I take it this is your personal opinion?

How much do you estimate per capita.

 

[Andy_Ross]

They'll revert slowly to their natural condition, rather as that other totally unnatural environment would - grouse moors

Our local moors the North Yorkshire Moors are all Grouse Moor but they are also grazed by sheep. Grouse Moor is maintained by burning the heather in strips every few years to allow plenty of young shoots that the grouse feed on next to older heather for cover.
Other areas have a lot of grass upland which as you say would revert to scrub and woodland if the sheep disappeared. It may be more 'natural' but the Brits like their man made uplands, they have been there since the iron age.

 

[Airfix]

The administration of tariff free trade itself is very cheap. It is merely the abolition of customs tariffs across a bloc.

NAFTA manage to have tariff free trade for less than $6m USD a year, individual members fees do not exceed $2m USD a year.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...DWIQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=nafta budget&f=false

And the method I favour:
EEA currently costs:
EEA related activities 7,914,000
EFTA/EU statistical cooperation 744,000
EU/EFTA and EFTA cooperation programmes 2,710,000

This is not the cost to an individual country, this is the overall cost for three countries.
But by dividing these figures by 3, here is the average for one country:
EEA related activities 2,638,000 CHF
EFTA/EU statistical cooperation 248,000 CHF
EU/EFTA and EFTA cooperation programmes 903,333.33 CHF.

It's less per year than we pay in a day for full membership of the EU.

 

[Spanx]

The administration of tariff free trade itself is very cheap. It is merely the abolition of customs tariffs across a bloc.

NAFTA manage to have tariff free trade for less than $6m USD a year, individual members fees do not exceed $2m USD a year.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...DWIQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=nafta budget&f=false

And the method I favour:
EEA currently costs:
EEA related activities 7,914,000
EFTA/EU statistical cooperation 744,000
EU/EFTA and EFTA cooperation programmes 2,710,000

This is not the cost to an individual country, this is the overall cost for three countries.
But by dividing these figures by 3, here is the average for one country:
EEA related activities 2,638,000 CHF
EFTA/EU statistical cooperation 248,000 CHF
EU/EFTA and EFTA cooperation programmes 903,333.33 CHF.

It's less per year than we pay in a day for full membership of the EU.

Ok, let's put it another way. How much does Norway pay per capita and how much does the uk pay per capita.

A straight simple answer would be appreciated.

 

[Airfix]

Which of those 'tensions' do you think could lead to a situation which could be the cause of a world war?

I was highlighting the EU's role in triggering a civil war in Ukraine in which people died. http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/docs/association_agreement_ukraine_2014_en.pdf

The document includes mention of the Common Security and Defence Policy on page 3.

And on page 5 Article 1 Paragraph (f)

to develop dialogue and to deepen cooperation between the Parties in the field of security and defence.

This was diplomatic insanity, Russia's Black Sea fleet is stationed at Sevastopol in Crimea, it's a strategic territory of great importance to Russia whose government sees itself as being Ukraine's primary partner for security and defence.

Putin got spooked, civil war occurred.

 

[Airfix]

Ok, let's put it another way. How much does Norway pay per capita and how much does the uk pay per capita.

A straight simple answer would be appreciated.

There are 5,051,275 people in Norway.
12,001,787 CHF is paid into the EFTA budget by Norway every year.
EFTA's budget pays out for the EEA agreement.

12,001,787 CHF / 5,051,275 people = a cost of 2.375991606079653 CHF per person per year.

Assuming we were to pay 12,001,787 CHF per year into the EFTA budget ourselves;
12,001,787 CHF / 63,181,775 people = 0.1899564708335592 CHF per person per year.

However, we are in the EU, after rebate we pay £8,473bn going by this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf#page=44

8,473,000,000 / 63,181,775 people = £134.1051276258067 per person per year.

 

[CapelDodger]

Ah yes, MEPs, people who we elect to do the same sort of job Lords in this country do. Yet the people who aren't elected write the policies they vote on.

The people who are elected to govern the member states appoint the commisioners and determine the policies.

It's the reverse of the system we use in Westminster and the system we use in Westminster isn't brilliant, but at least we can kick out people who make policies we don't like.

Including the EU policies they support.

If Commissioners were elected I'd be a lot less hostile towards the EU, but they're not.

If the commisioners were elected they could claim a democratic mandate that overrides the desires of the member states' governments. That would be a loss of the members' sovereignty, something they have resisted until now and show no sign of surrendering. A stand-off would ensue, with unknown consequences. One possible outcome would, of course, be a federal Europe with sovereignty vested in the elected commission and parliament.

A great advance, of course, but a similar advance in 17th century England came with a lot of associated unpleasantness. Hopefully no heads would have to roll on this occasion.

There is an EU military policy and a military staff which works under the direct authority of High Representative / Vice President, (HRVP) Federica Mogherini, who leads the EEAS and chairs the Foreign Affairs Council and Defence.
http://eeas.europa.eu/csdp/structures-instruments-agencies/eu-military-staff/index_en.htm
This has no relation to free movement of goods labour capital or services.

The EU does not need a foreign policy chief or a military staff, it isn't a country.

It would be soon enough with an elected commission naturally allied with the elected parliament. And a new model army, of course. When push comes to shove that's where authority ultimately lies.

 

[CapelDodger]

Other areas have a lot of grass upland which as you say would revert to scrub and woodland if the sheep disappeared.

I fear rhododendron would conquer all.