Merged Now What?

[Airfix]

And an EEA solution will make (almost) everyone a bit unhappy.

Those like me who want to remain in the EU will be unhappy.

People who want to "close the borders" will be unhappy.

People who don't want to send £££££s to the EU will be unhappy

But at least it will be millions a year not billions.

But right now it's the least worst option.

Correct.

 

[The Don]

But at least it will be millions a year not billions.

Well that's what you're claiming but that's not what the other countries in a similar position pay per capita, it's not what experts say (although I understand that Leave voters largely eschew expert opinion relying instead on their gut) and it's not what the EU itself says.

You're basing your costs solely on the EEA's costs completely ignoring the fact that the EEA is subsidised hugely by the EU which is why non-EU EEA members need to contribute far more than their proportion of the EEA "stationery budget"

 

[Lothian]

Single market aside, what else is good about the EU ?
Not much.

Information sharing. The EU funds information exchange in respect of crime and tax avoidance/fraud. Some people may be happy for this to stop and for the UK to no longer benefit from this information.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A link to the EEA agreement.
I can see a lot of Brexiters disliking this.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eeaforside/#.V7RirYpwZJ8

 

[Andy_Ross]

No veto in the European Council
No votes in the Council of Ministers – where national governments vote on EU legislation
No MEPs or votes in the European Parliament
No European Commissioner and no European Commission staff
No judges or staff at the European Court of Justice
No control on movement of people and open borders with the EU.

We could theoretically refuse to implement EU legislation, but if it relates to product standards or financial regulations, for example failing to implenent would mean we could no longer continue to export to the EU and would be locked out of the Single Market.

 

[The Don]

Single market aside, what else is good about the EU ?
Not much.

Sounds like a "what have the Romans ever done for us" argument to me.

It also depends on where you draw the boundaries of the single market. The free movement of people is a great benefit of the EU but I suppose that because it's a pre-requisite for the single market it could be considered part of the single market.

The environmental protections which have been "foisted" on the UK and have resulted in much better water and air quality could, I suppose, also be considered aspects of the single market.

Those anti-monopoly and anti-subsidy rules which the EU insists on are, I suppose part of the single market.

I suppose that you could claim that the workers rights and protections that the EU has insisted on in addition to the UK's preferred position are part of the single market.

So ignoring that, how about a few examples:

• I get decent compensation for late or cancelled flights thanks to the EU
• EU legislation has resulted in higher levels of consumer protection both in terms of longer warranties and increased consumer rights
• EU-led cross border police co-operation helps reduce trafficing of people and drugs, track terrorists and expose paedophiles
• European Arrest Warrants make it easier to repatriate criminals
• EU-funded infrastructure projects for the poorest parts of the EU (including the UK)

Now it is true that all of this *could* have been achieved by coming to agreements between the disparate parties but the EU provides a significant shortcut.

 

[The Don]

A link to the EEA agreement.
I can see a lot of Brexiters disliking this.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eeaforside/#.V7RirYpwZJ8

No veto in the European Council
No votes in the Council of Ministers – where national governments vote on EU legislation
No MEPs or votes in the European Parliament
No European Commissioner and no European Commission staff
No judges or staff at the European Court of Justice
No control on movement of people and open borders with the EU.

We could theoretically refuse to implement EU legislation, but if it relates to product standards or financial regulations, for example failing to implenent would mean we could no longer continue to export to the EU and would be locked out of the Single Market.

For "Little Englanders" (who I guess represent a significant proportion of Leave voters) the EEA is even worse than the EU.

 

[catsmate]

The turnout at the last general election was 66.1% are you suggesting we should have had another election shortly afterwards in the hope of a different result and higher turnout ?

How said anything of the sort? You claimed that "when the public are involved apathy disappears". Yet the turnout wasn't even up 10% on the last election.

She has announced "Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a success of it".
TTIP is a deal between the EU and the USA not the UK and the USA, so her policy of Brexit will cut us out of TTIP.

So the UK will develop it's own deal with the US, without the negotiating power of the EU. That'll end well...

Single market aside, what else is good about the EU ?
Not much.

Opinion.

Countries not in the single market only need to comply with rules that affect trade with it, whether it be on a tariff free basis or not.

So you'll be OK with the devastating effect on the UK economy of losing single market access?

 

[Lothian]

Single market aside, what else is good about the EU ?
Not much.

Correct apart from
freedom to live, work and retire anywhere in Europe
Free healthcare in the EU
consular protection from other EU member states
Consumer protection
capped roaming charges
Lower credit card transaction charges
crime information exchanges
Greater World Influence
Multinational corporate investment
Brains
Stronger pound
Workers rights
Safer food and
Cheaper food
What has the EU ever done for us?

 

[catsmate]

No veto in the European Council
No votes in the Council of Ministers – where national governments vote on EU legislation
No MEPs or votes in the European Parliament
No European Commissioner and no European Commission staff
No judges or staff at the European Court of Justice
No control on movement of people and open borders with the EU.

We could theoretically refuse to implement EU legislation, but if it relates to product standards or financial regulations, for example failing to implenent would mean we could no longer continue to export to the EU and would be locked out of the Single Market.

But, but, freedom......

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Single market aside, what else is good about the EU ?
Not much.

Ridiculous from a self-proclaimed skeptic. Do you want us to make a list?

Free movement of people
Access to FTAs with non-EU countries
Standardisation of regulations
Co-operation across academia, scientific research etc etc
Funding of projects
A forum for co-operation on supra-national issues
A firm signal of commitment to working together for common advancement

And that was about 20 seconds of thought.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Whoa, hang on a moment.
I know people who are in their early 20's who also voted to leave.
And my whole life has been in the EU. I am only in my 30's.

I note that quite a few posts have pointed out that approx three-quarters of young people wanted to remain in the EU.

This is supposed to be a skeptics forum, I am a Euroskeptic.

Also comprehensively answered.


One of the reasons I asked you if you had listened to any of the 'Brexit Street' items was that all the reasons I heard for voting to leave did not involve the EU. There was one voice of reason I heard and that was from an older woman who pointed out as I did way back in this thread that above all other reasons for remaining, the most important was peace. Okay, there are always going to be conflicts, but to vote on a few short-term perceived problems was a risk this country should not take. During the next fifty, hundred years no-one can say that another madman will not rouse up people to cause world-wide havoc.
I shall not be here, but the idea of my granddaughters and their future families having to face any such prospect is a sad one.

There are other things I would like to see as well. I would like to replace the 800 or so members of the House of Lords with an elected body. I would like a bit more direct democracy. The referendum has shown that when the public are involved apathy disappears.

Can you not see how parochial, insular and minor those 'problems' are? And you can think about them in the security of a country and, more importantly, an EU at peace.

 

[SusanB-M1]

That's the narrative that the British trawlermen have developed but the greatest enthusiasts for overfishing are trawlermen themselves. Foreign trawlers operate because British firms sold their quotas.

Here's a different take on the ills of the fishing industry

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/britains-fishy-role-in-the-quota-hopping-scandal-1315516.html

There was one programme I listened to before the referendum on the subject of fishing. It explained very well how leaving the EU would create a mountain of problems concerning borders of fishing areas, quotas and so on. I'm afraid I cannot remember any of the details though!

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm no expert on fisheries but this is interesting reading:

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry/

Of course, 'gaining control of our fisheries' would be a somewhat ironic reason to leave the EU if it led to Scotland leaving the UK and taking its sizeable share of the fishing industry with it.

 

[Airfix]

No veto in the European Council
No votes in the Council of Ministers – where national governments vote on EU legislation
No MEPs or votes in the European Parliament
No European Commissioner and no European Commission staff
No judges or staff at the European Court of Justice
No control on movement of people and open borders with the EU.

We could theoretically refuse to implement EU legislation, but if it relates to product standards or financial regulations, for example failing to implenent would mean we could no longer continue to export to the EU and would be locked out of the Single Market.

Exempt from all EU laws and rules on political union. Only trade laws and rules would apply, same as US laws apply to British exports to the USA.
Exempt from ECJ judgements.
Cheaper food.
No MEPs or Commissioners or Commission staff to pay for.
No involvement in the stupid Brussels - Strasbourg - Brussels - Strasbourg - Brussels - Strasbourg Parliament moves (and related logistical costs).
Cheaper cost of trade, EEA agreement costs just 7,914,000 Swiss Francs a year for three countries SOURCE:
http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/EFTA-Budget-748

EU will not be able to interfere with UK tax laws, government procurements or expenditure.
EU cannot stop UK government from bailing out a business or granting a tax break.
Members have to apply to the Commission for permission, even if company for which thousands of people work, is on the brink of collapse.

So no Commissioner or voice in the Council ? So what ? I don't CARE about that.

We now have full democratic choice over the future for our country.

 

[Airfix]

And you can think about them in the security of a country and, more importantly, an EU at peace.

Do you REALLY think that the only way to have peace in Europe is by surrendering democratic powers to an unelected body of Commissioners?

Because frankly, I see the tensions which that body is causing.

Also, do you remember former Foreign Policy Chief, Vice President of the Commission and High Representative of the EU, Baroness Catherine Ashton and her diplomatic negotiations with Ukraine and Russia ?
That went 'well' didn't it, she played her part in causing a civil war.

I know Putin is also at fault here, but let's not excuse the behaviour of the EU in this. It's been disgraceful and people died.

 

[Airfix]

One of the reasons I asked you if you had listened to any of the 'Brexit Street' items was that all the reasons I heard for voting to leave did not involve the EU.

I have not watched it.

Did you watch the Jeremy Paxman programme on the EU which was broadcast weeks before the referendum ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGOzhhOAF8

 

[Airfix]

Correct apart from
freedom to live, work and retire anywhere in Europe

So what ? I have a friend who lives and works in Australia.
I have another friend who lives in Taiwan and trains prospective airline pilots, he used to be a 747 Captain.

Free healthcare in the EU

It's not free, it's tax funded.
Same service could be achieved by treaty and invoices to the UK government and vice versa when it's a foreign country's citizen.

consular protection from other EU member states

Doesn't warrant paying membership for that.
We could do a treaty.

Consumer protection

Consumer protection is possible without paying £8.5bn a year in membership fees.

capped roaming charges

Great news for customers of American mobile phone networks.

Lower credit card transaction charges

Unless you happen to bank with a bank from outside the EU then you get clobbered.

crime information exchanges

Isn't that what Interpol was created for ?

Greater World Influence

We lack our own voice at the WTO and given half a chance the EU would take our seat in NATO and the UN Security Council. So greater world influence ? I think not.

Multinational corporate investment

There was multinational corporate investment before the UK's entry into what was the EEC.

Brains

? If you say so...

Stronger pound

A stronger pound is not a good thing if you're looking to export and other countries can do it cheaper.

Workers rights

Council of Europe had already brought in the European Social Charter.
http://www.coe.int/en/web/turin-european-social-charter

Our workers rights exceed the EU standards anyway.

Safer food

They did nothing about BSE in French beef.

Cheaper food

Cheaper food ? No. this is the organisation which dreamed up CAP subsidies to farmers including a fallow land subsidy, food mountains and tariffs on agricultural products from outside the EU.
Try and get New Zealand made butter or New Zealand lamb in a UK supermarket these days.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Do you REALLY think that the only way to have peace in Europe is by surrendering democratic powers to an unelected body of Commissioners?

Of course it is not the only way, but it is an extremely good basis for promoting communication when all have to be consulted.

Because frankly, I see the tensions which that body is causing.

Which of those 'tensions' do you think could lead to a situation which could be the cause of a world war?

 

[Rat]

Cheaper food ? No. this is the organisation which dreamed up CAP subsidies to farmers including a fallow land subsidy, food mountains and tariffs on agricultural products from outside the EU.
Try and get New Zealand made butter or New Zealand lamb in a UK supermarket these days.

I don't get it. Are you saying that it's difficult or something? At Sainsbury's I always have the choice of either British or New Zealand. There doesn't seem to be a huge difference in price.