Merged Now What?

[uke2se]

I asked you to read it in context, not outside of it. Do I have to spell it out for you? Agatha said that the brexiters (whatever that means, I assume she meant those campaigning in favour of Leave) had no plan for a post-Leave vote. I responded that they didn't have to (because until the decision is made, you don't need to actually enact it) because what they were doing was asking people (and campaigning for one side of the issue) to tell them if that's what they wanted, via the referendum.

And I said that that's wrong, because they did present several plans to people during the campaign, but thy lied about yhose.

First of all, "it's in the news" is no proof. Second, an economic downturn is not only expected, it's also not what you claimed.

It's not proof, no. It's an indication of what's happening in the world. Might want to check it out.

And it was what I claimed.

That wasn't your claim. I'm getting the impression that changing the conversation after the fact will be your modus operandi here.

Yes, it was what I claimed. Deliberately misunderstanding me will be your MO then?

 

[MikeG]

Delusional. If you can't see the massive difference in honesty between the campaigns, this conversation is pointless.

It's pointless, then. Because uke2se says so.

Delusional? You mean the chancellor didn't lie?

 

[Lothian]

There were lies on both sides ( I could point to more Remain campaign lies and exaggerations, but it's pointless.)

Both campaigns were run by politicians.

Newsflash: Politicians lie to win elections. They all do. British, French, German, Australian, American, the lot of 'em..

The leave side claimed things would be better voting leave. Remain said it would be worse. If it turn out to be worse but not as bad as remain said then the lies are not equivalent. Seems to me that things aren't going well. The Chancellor has scrapped his golden rules and has said he will cut CT as a bribe to try to keep businesses here, that will need to be paid for by VAT and/or personal tax rises.

 

[uke2se]

I asked you to read it in context, not outside of it. Do I have to spell it out for you? Agatha said that the brexiters (whatever that means, I assume she meant those campaigning in favour of Leave) had no plan for a post-Leave vote. I responded that they didn't have to (because until the decision is made, you don't need to actually enact it) because what they were doing was asking people (and campaigning for one side of the issue) to tell them if that's what they wanted, via the referendum.

After having cofee, this paragraph is even dumber than it appeared to be. Not only are you saying that you don't need a plan for what to do before voting for sweeping change, you are also saying that the Brexiters were asking the people what their pman should be.

Cue "that's not what I said" and a jump to an even dumber view-point, all to keep being contrarian.

 

[uke2se]

OK we've reached "bargaining". Eagerly awaiting "depression"

Did you quote the right post?

 

[MikeG]

After having cofee, this paragraph is even dumber than it appeared to be. Not only are you saying that you don't need a plan for what to do before voting for sweeping change, you are also saying that the Brexiters were asking the people what their pman should be.

Cue "that's not what I said" and a jump to an even dumber view-point, all to keep being contrarian.

You expect a campaign group containing politicians from across multiple parties to attempt to tie the hands of the Conservative government with the promises they make during a campaign against that government? Really? What kind of weird world do you live in?

 

[McHrozni]

The leave side claimed things would be better voting leave. Remain said it would be worse. If it turn out to be worse but not as bad as remain said then the lies are not equivalent. Seems to me that things aren't going well. The Chancellor has scrapped his golden rules and has said he will cut CT as a bribe to try to keep businesses here, that will need to be paid for by VAT and/or personal tax rises.

It's not that both sides lied, only one far more so than the other. The Remain side clearly spoke the truth, but it could be the truth won't be as bad as they said. The Leave side lied on multiple levels - both on how good their option is, but also they lied in that they didn't have a plan to execute their life's ambition.

That clearly shows a couple of other issues, namely:

1. Leave side didn't do any serious analysis of how the UK would be better off, or else they'd have something resembling a plan already made in advance.
2. Leave side didn't expect to win at all, implicating they were really only in for the cozy government jobs, won easily on the backs of people voting for something they would never do anyway.

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

It's pointless, then. Because uke2se says so.

Delusional? You mean the chancellor didn't lie?

I have no idea if he lied. I asked you to list the remain lies, and you declined to do so. All we are left with are leave lies.

Skickat från min SM-G920F via Tapatalk

 

[Lothian]

It is not fair to say the Brexiters had no plan. They did have a plan.
Absolute saving of £350m a week.
Limit immigration using an Australian style system
Spend £350m a week on the NHS
Agree a free trade deal with Europeans desperate for our market
Spend £350m a week on universities, fishing, farming and the other areas funded by the EU
Reclaim our borders (presumably involving walls)
Scrap all EU rules and rewrite those that are appropriate.
Ensure UK Citizens have free movement around Europe.

The fact that the plan is delusional does not mean that they didn't have one.

 

[Ambrosia]

The leave side claimed things would be better voting leave. Remain said it would be worse. If it turn out to be worse but not as bad as remain said then the lies are not equivalent. Seems to me that things aren't going well.

The vote was not that long ago.

Get back to me in 5 years and we can compare and contrast the state of the economy then. A Leave vote was always going to cause short term economic turmoil, and almost certainly lead to a UK recession until things settled down.

The currency is falling and the markets are down because of economic uncertainty. Once things are more certain then things will improve.

 

[Ambrosia]

It is not fair to say the Brexiters had no plan. They did have a plan.
Absolute saving of £350m a week.
Limit immigration using an Australian style system
Spend £350m a week on the NHS
Agree a free trade deal with Europeans desperate for our market
Spend £350m a week on universities, fishing, farming and the other areas funded by the EU
Reclaim our borders (presumably involving walls)
Scrap all EU rules and rewrite those that are appropriate.
Ensure UK Citizens have free movement around Europe.

The fact that the plan is delusional does not mean that they didn't have one.

Campaign promises does not equal " a plan" especially in a cross party political campaign where there isn't even a united campaign HQ.

 

[The Don]

The vote was not that long ago.

Get back to me in 5 years and we can compare and contrast the state of the economy then. A Leave vote was always going to cause short term economic turmoil, and almost certainly lead to a UK recession until things settled down.

The currency is falling and the markets are down because of economic uncertainty. Once things are more certain then things will improve.

Trouble is that we won't have a Remain version of the economy to compare the Leave version to.

 

[McHrozni]

Get back to me in 5 years and we can compare and contrast the state of the economy then.

Sure, but where's your negative control?

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

You expect a campaign group containing politicians from across multiple parties to attempt to tie the hands of the Conservative government with the promises they make during a campaign against that government? Really? What kind of weird world do you live in?

I expect them to have concrete and realistic plans as to how to actually do the thing they want, yes. If they can't agree, just present several plans. As it is, they completely deserted their responsibility.

The world I live in is called "the real world", by the way. It may well seem weird to a Brexiter, who apparently doesn't pay much attention to reality.

 

[McHrozni]

It is not fair to say the Brexiters had no plan. They did have a plan.
Absolute saving of £350m a week.
Limit immigration using an Australian style system
Spend £350m a week on the NHS
Agree a free trade deal with Europeans desperate for our market
Spend £350m a week on universities, fishing, farming and the other areas funded by the EU
Reclaim our borders (presumably involving walls)
Scrap all EU rules and rewrite those that are appropriate.
Ensure UK Citizens have free movement around Europe.

The fact that the plan is delusional does not mean that they didn't have one.

Hehe

If I were in their place, I'd prefer saying I had no plan at all though.

McHrozni

 

[MikeG]

I expect them to have concrete and realistic plans as to how to actually do the thing they want, yes. If they can't agree, just present several plans. As it is, they completely deserted their responsibility.

The world I live in is called "the real world", by the way. It may well seem weird to a Brexiter, who apparently doesn't pay much attention to reality.

Ridiculous. No plan/s that Vote Leave could ever make would have any authority because............get this...............they weren't/ aren't the government, or fighting to be elected as the government. I'm really not sure how much simpler I can make this for you, and I'm sorry that you can't understand this very basic point.

As an illustration, if Gisela Stuart had said "we intend to spend an extra £5 billion a year on the NHS" what impact would that have had on George Osborne's plans, do you think?

 

[Ambrosia]

Trouble is that we won't have a Remain version of the economy to compare the Leave version to.

True, but we can use a reasonable mathematical model to come up with a good approximation. We have 40odd years of data to work with.

 

[MikeG]

I have no idea if he lied. I asked you to list the remain lies, and you declined to do so. All we are left with are leave lies....

No, I went to bed. Sorry, should I ask your permission for that too?

When I awoke this morning I found that Ambrosia had covered the point perfectly well. Again, I'm really sorry that I can't make this simple enough for you to grasp: I am not speaking on behalf of Brexit, and points covered by other posters don't need to be repeated by me just to satisfy your point-scoring.

 

[MikeG]

True, but we can use a reasonable mathematical model to come up with a good approximation. We have 40odd years of data to work with.

Nope. I'm with The Don on this. We'll never know......

 

[The Don]

True, but we can use a reasonable mathematical model to come up with a good approximation. We have 40odd years of data to work with.

Riiiight, so economic models are reliable enough to demonstrate that Brexit was an economic triumph but are so unreliable that they cannot be used to demonstrate the economic consequences of Brexit in advance.