Merged Now What?

[McHrozni]

Like Carthage, Boris Johnson must be destroyed. Not sidelined, not eclipsed, but utterly and very publicly ruined. A delightful prospect, I'm sure we'd all agree.

I think that the steps taken by the new British PM thus far are exactly in line with that. Gross political ineptitude, or shrewd setting them up to fail? We'll know within a 3-12 months.

McHrozni

 

[Lothian]

As i understand it there is no need to privatise the railways under EU law, You simply need to put enough distance between the track owning and rail stock elements. Privatisation was a choice the Tories wanted.

 

[McHrozni]

As i understand it there is no need to privatise the railways under EU law, You simply need to put enough distance between the track owning and rail stock elements. Privatisation was a choice the Tories wanted.

Precisely. And Brexit supporters blame the EU for what is an entirely British failure. That's why the 100% state ownership of German railways (the company, Deutsche Bahn) is important, it proves beyond all doubt they're wrong.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

I mostly agree.

....and the EU had nothing to do with the clusterhug that was rail privatisation. The UK government managed that all by themselves.

Ditto water and electricity.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

....and the EU had nothing to do with the clusterhug that was rail privatisation. The UK government managed that all by themselves.

Ditto water and electricity.

I don't think they even blamed that one on the EU to be fair but there has been a tendency to try to scapegoat the EU for UK decisions and it looks like some of the mud has stuck.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Well, then leave.

You know, I'm 50 and I've been following this since the days of Mrs. T and her handbagging of the other EC leaders and her "I want my money back". Ever since, every British PM has been acting as a petulant child in the EC/EU and complaining that they're still paying too much into it, and that they don't want to participate in Schengen because it brings rabies, and don't want to participate with the Euro because the vaunted Sterling is still world currency, and don't want to participate in the Social Charter because British employers must be able to exploit their workers like in the days of Marx and Engels. And so on and so on. And ever since, there's been this constant droning voice in British politics, in both major parties, that they want out again.

You know, I'm totally sick of it, and to Mrs. T, and Boris and Farage and you I say: good riddance, don't let the door hit you in the face on the way out. And at the same time, I feel sorry for the many rational thinking Brits who understand that their future lies with further cooperation with the continent, and with people like The Don who now must fear going out of business because of this utterly foolish decision.

I don't blame you for feeling like that. I don't see it as us having held a referendum; I see it as an intelligence test for continued membership. We failed.

Dave

 

[CapelDodger]

I think that the steps taken by the new British PM thus far are exactly in line with that. Gross political ineptitude, or shrewd setting them up to fail? We'll know within a 3-12 months.

I wouldn't bet on May's ineptitude (any more, I imagine, than you would). I wouldn't ask long odds to bet on the other three, though.

There's a G20 shindig in September, I think, which should give May plenty of opportunity to undermine the Foreign Secretary. Subtly or not, depending on the audience.
The ideal upshot is that negotiations are a fiasco, May blames it on the Brexiteers, the whole thing gets ditched and there's a huge sigh of relief across the country and, more particularly, Whitehall. And high dudgeon in Edinburgh, which will please some folk.

 

[CapelDodger]

There's nothing wrong with a private rail system. Private companies built and operated the railways up until the 1940s.
WW2 wore out the railways and the rise of road transport meant rationalisations were inevitable.

The first government-brokered rationalisation took place in the 20's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_Act_1921

The Railways Act 1921 (c. 55),[1] also known as the Grouping Act, was an Act of Parliament enacted by the British government of David Lloyd George intended to stem the losses being made by many of the country's 120 railway companies, move the railways away from internal competition, and to retain some of the benefits which the country had derived from a Government-controlled railway during and after the Great War of 1914-1918. The provisions of the Act took effect from the start of 1923.

For some types of services, obviously, competition is not the most appropriate model.

Unfortunately the cuts under the Beaching Report were made for political reasons as much as financial or strategic transport reasons at the behest of the road transport lobby (As always, lots if opportunities for friends to make money)

One can be a little too cynical. Road transport was the future.

 

[Dave Rogers]

One can be a little too cynical. Road transport was the future.

Yes, after the rail network had been cut back to the point where it couldn't compete with door-to-door service and given that private motorists effectively subsidise goods haulage. If road hauliers had to pay for upkeep of the roads proportionately to the wear and tear they inflict on them and the railways hadn't been cut back to a network of highly centralized goods depots, it might not have been.

Dave

 

[Airfix]

At the end of the day you can keep going off on tangents and pointing the finger, or answer the question the OP asked.

"What next" ?

I suggested the EEA agreement and have been attacked for suggesting it.

I am not a Sun reader btw.

We're leaving the EU. The government and the opposition have both ruled out remaining, instead there will be an orderly departure.

So:

EEA agreement / Bilateral free trade deal South Korea style / WTO MFN rules and tariffs ?

Whichever we pick, we need to guarantee the rights of people from other EU member countries living in the UK. They are legal immigrants, they shouldn't be punished.

 

[CapelDodger]

Yes, after the rail network had been cut back to the point where it couldn't compete with door-to-door service and given that private motorists effectively subsidise goods haulage. If road hauliers had to pay for upkeep of the roads proportionately to the wear and tear they inflict on them and the railways hadn't been cut back to a network of highly centralized goods depots, it might not have been.

It would have been. It has been everywhere else, lets face it. With cheap oil and mass production there's no competion.

A much better mix could have been achieved, I'm sure, but the motorways were coming sooner or later.

 

[CapelDodger]

At the end of the day you can keep going off on tangents and pointing the finger, or answer the question the OP asked.

"What next" ?

I suggested the EEA agreement and have been attacked for suggesting it.

You'v been put straight on it in various regards; any attacks are associated with your apparent intransigence when corrected.

I am not a Sun reader btw.

Heaven forfend. Daily Mail, surely?

EEA agreement / Bilateral free trade deal South Korea style / WTO MFN rules and tariffs ?

Stay in the EU.

Whichever we pick, we need to guarantee the rights of people from other EU member countries living in the UK. They are legal immigrants, they shouldn't be punished.

As May has already demonstrated we don't need to do that at all. If the UK is Taking Back Control it can redefine their status any way it wants.

 

[CapelDodger]

I don't blame you for feeling like that. I don't see it as us having held a referendum; I see it as an intelligence test for continued membership. We failed.

I see it as a character issue myself. Same result in total, but the younger generations show promise.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm not excusing Putin at all, but the EU must bear some responsibility, it was trying to get Ukraine to agree to a comprehensive deal that would have damaged relations between Ukraine and Russia.

The EU wasn't pressing itself on Ukraine, it was responding to approaches by Ukrainian politicians. It's true that EU policy favours expansion into ex-Soviet and Warsaw Pact Europe but that's also the policy of its member states, and indeed of the US. See also NATO expanion, in which the US is more gung-ho than the EU. I'm not much in favour of either myself, but I'm all too used to being not in favour of stuff that goes on anyway.

Victor Yanukovic didn't want it, he was toppled by people who did and violently replaced. There are no political heroes in this conflict only civilians who are hurting.

Ukrainians on both sides chose to make attitude towards the EU emblematic of Ukraine's national divisions. Enough on both sides wanted conflict for it to be inevitable in what is very fertile ground.

 

[Airfix]

Stay in the EU.

Not an option. Government and opposition have both ruled out remaining.
Sorry, but your side lost the referendum on the 23rd of June.

We are leaving. Therefore, what NEXT ?

 

[Airfix]

The EU wasn't pressing itself on Ukraine, it was responding to approaches by Ukrainian politicians.

The document made reference to including Common Security and Defence Policy as part of the deal.

This is not sensible, Russia's Black Sea Fleet is based in Crimea.

All that needed to be done, was a deal with no tariffs.
As usual they had to go beyond all that.

They were incompetent, they didn't consider any consequences.

It's true that EU policy favours expansion into ex-Soviet and Warsaw Pact Europe but that's also the policy of its member states, and indeed of the US. See also NATO expanion, in which the US is more gung-ho than the EU.

fair point.

I'm not much in favour of either myself, but I'm all too used to being not in favour of stuff that goes on anyway.

Welcome to my world.

 

[Andy_Ross]

This is not sensible, Russia's Black Sea Fleet is based in Crimea.

Maybe they should gave thought about the repercussions of basing their fleet in a foreign country then.

Why should a trade deal with the EU even if it had a defence element cause problems for the Red Sea Fleet?

 

[ddt]

At the end of the day you can keep going off on tangents and pointing the finger, or answer the question the OP asked.

"What next" ?

I suggested the EEA agreement and have been attacked for suggesting it.

And obviously, that's not what the electorate wanted, especially not the UKIP crowd. They want those dirty Poles and Romanians who steal their jobs, and at the same time scrounge off the generous UK unemployment benefits, to go home.

It may be the most rational solution, but in many ways it's a fake solution. You may be able to negotiate an exemption, like Norway did with agricultural policy, but you're still going to have to conform to EU regulations, and this time without being able to vote on it.

And it's not a given that the EFTA even lets you back in. Norway may not want to lose its "superpower" status in the EEA/EFTA club. Iceland may want something in return like fishing rights in the whole British continental waters. Cod wars 3.

We're leaving the EU. The government and the opposition have both ruled out remaining, instead there will be an orderly departure.

Or 2 years of negotiations dragging on and then you're abruptly set by the curb, as Article 50 specifies.

Whichever we pick, we need to guarantee the rights of people from other EU member countries living in the UK. They are legal immigrants, they shouldn't be punished.

No, they should be taking the next plane/bus/train back to Warsaw and Sofia and Bucharest. That's what most of the "Leave" crowd wants anyway.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Not an option. Government and opposition have both ruled out remaining.
Sorry, but your side lost the referendum on the 23rd of June.

We are leaving. Therefore, what NEXT ?

Whatever the unelected PM decides is next. What makes you think your or my opinion is of any relevance?

I don't think the EEA would be a popular choice so I imagine we will end up with some bastardised status that none of us can actually predict right now.

Of all the options, simply ignoring the result would be the least damaging. EEA would probably be economically less damaging but rather pointless assuming it's even possible. I'm not sure a pure FTA would be on the table right now from the EU. So it might just have to be WTO terms. That's about the only option we can actually say is within our power to deliver.

ETA: Oh and hopefully Scottish Independence. Although Nicola has gone a bit quiet of late.

 

[CapelDodger]

Not an option. Government and opposition have both ruled out remaining.

Well that's that then, I guess. Politicians have spoken.

Sorry, but your side lost the referendum on the 23rd of June.

We haven't lost the battle, let alone the war.

We are leaving. Therefore, what NEXT ?

What you're seeing. Not very edifying, is it?