Merged Now What?

[The Don]

I have read post after post of invalid explainations trying to say that evidence based posts are invalid.

Your evidence is flawed, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you. It's consistent with the Brexit MO, construct a fantasy based on some semi-plausible numbers and continue to push it regardless of the facts.

The UK will not be able just to foot the bill for the EEA paperclips. Like the other non-EU members of the EEA they will be expected to make a significant contribution to the overall running costs of the EU which underpins it.

We keep going round and round and round in circles.
I get it that you want to be in the EU, I really do, but democracy is against you. We're leaving.

We still don't know, article 50 has not been invoked. In any case we do not know what democracy wanted. It seems to me that whatever post-Brexit solution is chosen, a significant proportion of Leave voters will be against it.

We now need to find a way of making leaving work.

The thread is called Now What ? Not "What was".

True, and true but it's important that we don't fall into the "fantasy trap" that fueled the Brexit decision.

We need to look to the future and find answers.
If we haven't got skilled negotiators, the answer is that we need to hire some.

That's as naive as saying that "all" you need to do to win the Premiership is hire the best players, manager and backroom staff and ignoring that:

- They may not want to work for you
- They may not play well together
- You may not have enough money to hire them
- It's more complicated than that

If you think that getting our way 98% of the time in the EU is unacceptable, the negotiations post-Brexit are going to be a bit of an eye opener.

If it takes time to get a free trade agreement, it takes time.
If it hurts the economy in the short / medium term, that's unfortunate, but people have voted.

It's not clear that they voted for this. Many were told that we'd be better off immediately.

I suggested that we rejoin EFTA and sign the EEA agreement as it's the option with the least disruption. Remaining in the EU is not an option, the public have voted against it.

I happen to agree that if we leave the EU then EEA membership is the least worst alternative BUT a majority of the Leave voters will be unhappy with a solution which means free movement of people, adherence to the majority of EU rules (but no way of influencing them) and a significant contribution to the EU budget.

It's not clear to me how a solution which is preferred by 20% of people is so democratic.

The options now are EFTA - EEA / or a new agreement or WTO MFN rules.

I say EEA, for all the moaning and groaning I see, nobody has a better suggestion.

There are a variety of options however:

Remaining in the EU will be supported by a little under 50% of people.

EEA membership outside the EU has perhaps the support of 40% of the 52% who voted to leave.

Talk about a democratic deficit

 

[catsmate]

Reshuffling the cabinet is more fun than looking at a lemon tree, that's for sure.

McHrozni

Even if they were plastic lemons?

 

[McHrozni]

Even if they were plastic lemons?

Especially if they're plastic lemons

McHrozni

 

[ddt]

Reshuffling the cabinet is more fun than looking at a lemon tree, that's for sure.

McHrozni

That's what's standing in the garden of 10 Downing Street? Anyway, this one's appropriate:

 

[McHrozni]

That's what's standing in the garden of 10 Downing Street?

My skills in botany tell me there is at least one tree, but that's as far as I can make it.

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/56572174dd0895e84c8b459c-1200/image.jpg

Can someone better skilled at this explain this conundrum?

McHrozni

 

[Lothian]

It's not clear that they voted for this. Many were told that we'd be better off immediately.

Indeed the message of the leave campaign was full of things like

"But Brexit campaigners have dismissed the Government’s scaremongering analysis saying there is no evidence that the pound would fall. "

Today we have the headline "Brexit latest: Airports start exchanging less than one Euro for each Pound Sterling"

That is not what 51% of people voted for.

 

[Lothian]

That's what's standing in the garden of 10 Downing Street? Anyway, this one's appropriate:

Here are a couple of lemons in the Downing street garden.

 

[catsmate]

That's what's standing in the garden of 10 Downing Street? Anyway, this one's appropriate:

I believe those are sycamore leaves.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Strawman fallacy. You do not know my position on the Al Yamamah deals or my views towards BAE Systems (a company that backed remaining in the EU I might add)...

I don't think I made any comment on your position on them. I'm simply pointing out that you cannot on one hand say 'it's great we will be able to negotiate trade deals' and on the other blame the EU for doing exactly that because they do business with countries you don't approve of when you know full well that the UK would do exactly the same given the powers that you say are a good thing for them to have.

You seem to be comparing the EU with a fantasy UK.

 

[Airfix]

I did my homework fine, but you may have issues with literacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn

Owner Federal Republic of Germany (100%)

Specifically, lack thereof.

German railways is a name of the company, which you apparently took to to mean all rail transport in Germany, even though there was no indication or reason for that.

Your post explicitly implied that there was no rail privatisation in Germany and that the railways were 100% state owned, the German railways system incorporates a number of private service providers in line with EU directives.

By the same definition, Network Rail in the UK is a public sector body, but every operator utilising the railway buys a franchise from the UK government in line with EU railway directives.

As someone who wishes to see fully state owned and operated passenger rail services, I do not like these directives.

And if I were you I'd apologise for your name calling, for I have not implied any retardedness on your part. I've only suggested that you learn more about the subject.

 

[CapelDodger]

British Rail was sacrificed on the alter of Tory Ideology.
That you would even try to claim the EU had anything to do with the butchery of the railways has to be a joke.

He's already put the EU in the frame for the Ukraine conflict so nothing should surprise. OK, maybe the Black Death.

 

[Aepervius]

Your post explicitly implied that there was no rail privatisation in Germany and that the railways were 100% state owned, the German railways system incorporates a number of private service providers in line with EU directives.

There is next to no private railways in germany. All of the long distance is DB as cited by Mchronzi. The rest are local public entities e.g. RMV : The RMV is a transportation association operated by 15 counties, 11 independent cities and the Bundesland of Hesse.
Or Berlin Brandeburg they are private limited company, but the subsidiary are wholly public.

The only pretty much private rail owned by private persons , to my knowledge, are private rail like a small train going 10 km in a nature park, I rode on one it is a closed circuit pretty much. Nothing with public rail. ETA: it seems there is also a few long distance one, like Gera - rostock transdev, but I frankly never heard of them, and there is nothing private where I am Frankfurt.

needless to say the bulk is DB/local city/states

 

[McHrozni]

Your post explicitly implied that there was no rail privatisation in Germany

No, you took it as such. You were wrong.

Near as I can tell, this is par for the course for you, and the entire Brexit community.

McHrozni

 

[Aepervius]

No, you took it as such. You were wrong.

Near as I can tell, this is par for the course for you, and the entire Brexit community.

McHrozni

Technically actually he was correct on the form : there is a minuscule procent of long distance train in germany which are privately owned companies. I could find one in wiki and it seems verrrry local. The other one discontinued in 2006...

 

[Andy_Ross]

There's nothing wrong with a private rail system. Private companies built and operated the railways up until the 1940s.
WW2 wore out the railways and the rise of road transport meant rationalisations were inevitable.
Unfortunately the cuts under the Beaching Report were made for political reasons as much as financial or strategic transport reasons at the behest of the road transport lobby (As always, lots if opportunities for friends to make money)
There is no reason the railways couldn't have been privatised successfully but the method chosen by the Tories looks as though it us designed to shovel as much money to shareholders as possible with users given lip service.
Give the track and infrastructure to one company who charges access fees to short term franchise holders and make them lease their stock from third parties that seem set up just to suck money out if the system.
Top it all off with bigger subsidies than British Rail ever got and make sure most of the money goes to the shareholders.
We have the most expensive railway system in Europe with an unintelligible ticketing and fares system. Railtrack had to be re nationalised, East Coast Mainline franchises had to be taken back in to public ownership and the short term nature of the franchise system meant that there was so little investment in new rolling stock that every UK manufacturer went out of business waiting for orders.

If it had to be privatised then there are examples of efficient and reliable schemes that could have been emulated. Heck, just recreating the pre-privatisation 'Big Four' companies would have been better. It could hsve been done just by seperating off the four BR Regions.

For similar cock ups see the privatisation of Energy and Water.

 

[Airfix]

He's already put the EU in the frame for the Ukraine conflict.

I'm not excusing Putin at all, but the EU must bear some responsibility, it was trying to get Ukraine to agree to a comprehensive deal that would have damaged relations between Ukraine and Russia. Victor Yanukovic didn't want it, he was toppled by people who did and violently replaced. There are no political heroes in this conflict only civilians who are hurting.

 

[Airfix]

There's nothing wrong with a private rail system. Private companies built and operated the railways up until the 1940s.
WW2 wore out the railways and the rise of road transport meant rationalisations were inevitable.
Unfortunately the cuts under the Beaching Report were made for political reasons as much as financial or strategic transport reasons at the behest of the road transport lobby (As always, lots if opportunities for friends to make money)
There is no reason the railways couldn't have been privatised successfully but the method chosen by the Tories looks as though it us designed to shovel as much money to shareholders as possible with users given lip service.
Give the track and infrastructure to one company who charges access fees to short term franchise holders and make them lease their stock from third parties that seem set up just to suck money out if the system.
Top it all off with bigger subsidies than British Rail ever got and make sure most of the money goes to the shareholders.
We have the most expensive railway system in Europe with an unintelligible ticketing and fares system. Railtrack had to be re nationalised, East Coast Mainline franchises had to be taken back in to public ownership and the short term nature of the franchise system meant that there was so little investment in new rolling stock that every UK manufacturer went out of business waiting for orders.

If it had to be privatised then there are examples of efficient and reliable schemes that could have been emulated. Heck, just recreating the pre-privatisation 'Big Four' companies would have been better. It could hsve been done just by seperating off the four BR Regions.

For similar cock ups see the privatisation of Energy and Water.

I mostly agree.

 

[Aepervius]

I'm not excusing Putin at all, but the EU must bear some responsibility, it was trying to get Ukraine to agree to a comprehensive deal that would have damaged relations between Ukraine and Russia. Victor Yanukovic didn't want it, he was toppled by people who did and violently replaced. There are no political heroes in this conflict only civilians who are hurting.

So you are AGAIN washing your own responsibility ?

Hint : such deal could have been vetoed by UK. It was not.

The responsibility if *any* as such is the EU-wide as in UK included.

You keep trying to separate them as if they were two distinct entity for such a deal. They are not.

But I would say it is typical sun reading Briton shift all the blame to EU and wash your hand of your own part in it, as if it was imposed by an EU where no UK EP no UK commissioner exists. I am starting to think De Gaulle was right.

 

[CapelDodger]

My information is that the three departments involved (the Department for Exiting the European Union, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Trade) are far too busy with infighting and empire building.
Which, of course, may be the whole point...

Three tomcats in a sack ...

They're even sharing the same grace-and-favour residence, I gather, making it but a few steps from slamming down the phone to getting right in someone's face; no cooling-down time in the ministerial limo. It has to be deliberate.

Like Carthage, Boris Johnson must be destroyed. Not sidelined, not eclipsed, but utterly and very publicly ruined. A delightful prospect, I'm sure we'd all agree.

 

[McHrozni]

I'm not excusing Putin at all, but the EU must bear some responsibility, it was trying to get Ukraine to agree to a comprehensive deal that would have damaged relations between Ukraine and Russia. Victor Yanukovic didn't want it, he was toppled by people who did and violently replaced. There are no political heroes in this conflict only civilians who are hurting.

If he didn't want it, he wouldn't have negotiated on it, or required an outright political bribe from Russia in return for rejecting it. This is the standard NKVD, pardon, FSB, myth that EU pushed Ukraine on the deal. That a Brexit supporter pushes these obvious lies tells quite a lot on the integrity and/or intelligence of the movement as a whole.

McHrozni