Norad?

[gumboot]

I have had questions for some time about a NORAD incident in 1983. It seems after some failures by personnel to launch their missiles in drill scenerios, the US briefly put the entire system completely under computer control.

I have seen evidence that a young high school student was able to hack into the War Operation Plan Response computer at NORAD and convince it to run a simulation of global thermonuclear war. This began a chain of events that came seconds from ending in the launch of a comprehensive nuclear first strike against the Soviets.

My information indicates that NORAD was utterly unable to control its own systems and, in the end, the same teenager was the only one who could disable the computer.

Can you honestly deny this?

Anyone played the game "DEFCON" based on the movie? (Kind of). It's actually a lot of fun.

-Gumboot

 

[Alex C]

I reinstalled Defcon yesterday. Coincidence...? CONSPIRACY!

 

[A-Train]

They were not "controlling" either the Otis or Langley fighters. They were merely responsible for airspace. The area around Langley AFB is home to Newport News - one of the largest naval yards in the US. It's also home to a number of Naval Air Stations including Oceana and Chambers.

If they weren't controlling the fighters, then who was? Please refer to the quote from my first post.

"...Huckabone orders a Navy air traffic controller who is handling the fighters to get them turned around. The Navy controller appears not to understand the urgency of the situation. He responds, “You’ve got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want ‘em to go to Baltimore?” Huckabone replies yes, and says, “Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing ‘em back, just tell Center they’ve got to go to Baltimore.” The Navy controller says, “Stand by. We’ll get back to you.” "

This clearly indicates it is an Navy controller who is talking to the fighters, doesn't it?

"No ATC communication recording, NORAD communication recording, or Radar recording of any kind were destroyed." -Gumboot

Huh? Are you kidding? Didn't you read the 9/11 Commission Report? The most important communications of the day, the actual orders to the fighters in their cockpits, seem to have disappeared.

“Because of a technical issue, there are no NEADS recordings available of the NEADS senior weapons director and weapons director technician position responsible for controlling the Otis scramble.” 9/11 Commission Report, pp 459

 

[Par]

Huh? Are you kidding? Didn't you read the 9/11 Commission Report? The most important communications of the day, the actual orders to the fighters in their cockpits, seem to have disappeared.

You seem to have conflated something being unavailable due to a technical issue with it having been destroyed.

 

[Spins]

If they weren't controlling the fighters, then who was? Please refer to the quote from my first post.

This clearly indicates it is an Navy controller who is talking to the fighters, doesn't it?

Huh? Are you kidding? Didn't you read the 9/11 Commission Report? The most important communications of the day, the actual orders to the fighters in their cockpits, seem to have disappeared.

Here's what happened from my point-of-view, although Gumboot may clear things up if I've got anything wrong.

NEADS ordered the Langley fighters to scramble at 9:24 for what now turns out to have been a phantom American 11 flying towards Baltimore. According to the 9/11 commission the pilots were never briefed by anyone at their base about why they were being scrambled so ended up following their normal training flight plan out to sea. About 10mins after the fighters were ordered into the air by NEADS, at 9:34, staff sergeant William Huckabone (at NEADS) noticed the fighters were off course. He immediately contacted NAVY ATC and ordered them to contact the pilots and get them to go to Baltimore; Huckabone contacted NAVY ATC because the fighters were flying through their airspace at the time. NAVY ATC were not controlling the fighters, nobody was, at that point in time the pilots were following their normal training flight plan! Remember this is only 10mins after the fighters were ordered into the air by NEADS.

In the pursuit of completeness below is the full quote, from the Vanity Fair article, of the exchange between NAVY ATC and NEADS. The quote from your original post was a copy and paste from Paul Thompson's Terror Timeline, unsurprisingly he omits several parts of the exchange in order to make it seem more like the Navy controller was procrastinating...

09:34:12
NAVY A.T.C.: You've got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want 'em to go to Baltimore?
HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We're not gonna take 'em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing 'em back, just tell Center they've got to go to Baltimore.
NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We'll get back to you.
CITINO: What do you mean, "We'll get back to you"? Just do it!
HUCKABONE: I'm gonna choke that guy!
CITINO: Be very professional, Huck.
HUCKABONE: O.K.
CITINO: All right, Huck. Let's get our act together here.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true&currentPage=all

So basically once the order was given to scramble the fighters at 9:24, in the space of 10mins, they were airborne and being told to turn around and fly back towards Baltimore as intended.

In your opinion (A-Train) how does this prove 9/11 was an inside job, after all Flight 11 (at 8:46) and 175 (at 9:03) had already hit the Twin Towers and by 9:34 the Pentagon was less than 4mins away from being hit by Flight 77?

BTW (to all) how long does it take to scramble a couple of fighters and get them airborne?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

BTW (to all) how long does it take to scramble a couple of fighters and get them airborne?

i believe SOP allows at most 15 minutes between the scramble order being given and the planes taking off

IIRC on 9/11 the planes were airborne in 6 minutes

 

[Reheat]

BTW (to all) how long does it take to scramble a couple of fighters and get them airborne?[/COLOR]

The required response time during the Cold War for ZULU Alert was 5 minutes. Since the end of the cold war it was lengthened to 15 minutes due to the peace dividend. How long does it actually take?

It depends upon several factors. Proximity of the aircraft to the appropriate runway, the location and status of the pilots (distance from the aircraft and whether a "heads up" had been initiated, and urgency of the situation (if known). 5 minutes consistently would virtually require the pilots to be sitting in the cockpit. However, under nearly all conceivable circumstances they could consistently do it in under 10 minutes from a cold start.

I personally have spent many hours on Victor alert with a 15 minute response time. We were easily able to beat that response time every time barring critical aircraft problems. In my case, we had to drive by vehicle approximate 1/4 mile from the alert facility to the aircraft.

So, the final answer to scramble/airborne would be consistently under 10 minutes from a dead cold start with no prior warning.

 

[Spins]

I honestly don't see what the problem is, it's apparent from the transcripts that the fighters must have been airborne within 10mins and apparently it took 6mins, which according to both ReHeat and defaultdotxbe is pretty damn good considering the max is 15mins.

If defaultdotxbe is correct, and I don't see why he shouldn't be, then that means NEADS realized the fighters were flying east towards their training airspace over the ocean in about 4mins, I'd be surprised if an ATC (given all the confusion on 9/11) would be able to notice much quicker than this (???).

All in all as Gumboot mentioned considering all the confusion on 9/11 NORADS performance was excellent, they did as much as they could do given the amount of info they had about possible hijackings etc.

 

[Spins]

Also I think it's worth pointing out that at 9:34 there was still no clear shootdown order because less than 2mins earlier a "Major James Anderson" asked the question...

09:32:20
Have you asked—have you asked the question what you're gonna do if we actually find this guy? Are we gonna shoot him down if they got passengers on board? Have they talked about that?

 

[Reheat]

According to the 9/11 commission the pilots were never briefed by anyone at their base about why they were being scrambled so ended up following their normal training flight plan out to sea. About 10mins after the fighters were ordered into the air by NEADS, at 9:34, staff sergeant William Huckabone (at NEADS) noticed the fighters were off course. He immediately contacted NAVY ATC and ordered them to contact the pilots and get them to go to Baltimore; Huckabone contacted NAVY ATC because the fighters were flying through their airspace at the time. NAVY ATC were not controlling the fighters, nobody was, at that point in time the pilots were following their normal training flight plan! Remember this is only 10mins after the fighters were ordered into the air by NEADS.

I haven't read that part of the 9/11 Commission Report, but I seriously doubt that those Pilots did not know about the WTC strike in NY. It does seem that they did not know the specifics of their LAUNCH. In other words, they had no specific target. Keep in mind that NEADS did not know the location of the phantom AA11. Nasypany wanted the fighters headed in the general direction of Baltimore with no specific target available at the launch time.

Bear in mind the mission of NORAD and the training which everyone had conducted. The orientation was outward, not inward to the US. The fighters NORMAL departure without a specific target was a Standard Departure to a point 60 nm East. The purpose of that departure was to clear the Fighters from conflicts with other military and civilian traffic in that general area. (The real world is not a computer game and conflicting traffic can not be cleared in an instant, it takes time).

Huckabee, obviously noticed the Fighters east of Langley headed east once they reached a high enough altitude for him to see them on his radar. The reference to Whiskey 386 tells us that they had not yet reached the Military Operating Area (MOA) Whiskey 386. It is apparent that the Navy owned Whiskey 386 and the fighters were either on the Navy frequency or headed that way. THE US NAVY WAS NOT AT ANY TIME CONTROLLING THOSE FIGHTERS. Since that Naval Unit which was NOT AN ATC Facility had direct contact the the ATC unit controlling the fighters, Huckabee asked them to direct the Fighters toward Baltimore. The fighters would have been under the ARTCC of Washington or New York depending upon their exact location over the Atlantic.

NEADS has the ability to take direct control of the Fighters for vectoring purposes and they discussed that, however they never had a specific target, so that did not happen.

There is NOTHING strange or is there evidence of any hidden agenda in this sequence of events. It is just evidence that the devious Jihadists surprised the US and basically caught us with our "pants around our knees".

 

[Spins]

Thanks for clearing that up ReHeat, I'm still interested in knowing why A-Train thinks this is relevant and points to government, or more specifically NORAD, complicity in the attacks because unfortunately I don't see it, and I mean that in the strongest possible sense!

 

[Galileo]

You seem to have conflated something being unavailable due to a technical issue with it having been destroyed.

You seem to have conflated something that was destroyed intentionally, with something else being unavailable due to a technical issue.

 

[Par]

You seem to have conflated something that was destroyed intentionally, with something else being unavailable due to a technical issue.

I don’t think that the word “conflate” means what you think it does.

 

[Reheat]

Another very important point needs to be further emphasized. Cheap Shot, our Boston ARTCC Controller, mentioned it earlier, but it needs emphasizing in a separate post.

Pre-9/11 a Hijacked Aircraft was NOT AN EMERGENCY to NORAD.

After the second airliner hit the WTC, NEADS did realize there was an attack upon the US and it is evident in their conversations and responses. However, they were "winging" the response and IMHO did an outstanding job. How does one change the system's mindset and convey that to all responding NORAD units during the limited response time they had? I think this helps to understand the Langley fighters response in following their standard departure when without a specific target. Perhaps if Nasypany had personally talked to the Langley Launch Team they would have gotten the message, but that was not the way the system worked at the time.

Had the Langley Fighters really known the situation, they could have made a hard bank following gear up and stayed "balls to the wall" all the way to Baltimore or Washington. To he!! with conflicting traffic, they would have just threaded their way through it and told everyone to "get the HE!! out of their way".

Had there been a threat from over the Ocean you can bet your "booty" they would have done exactly that. However, it's easy to discuss in hindsight, that we were under attack and the events of that day were not about a normal hijacked aircraft. That was NOT what NORAD was all about and that was not a mindset on that day.

It's all moot anyway as without shoot down authorization there was nothing that could have been done that wasn't done.

 

[Reheat]

I think I can speak with some credibility to state that pilots who have flown, now fly, and in the future will fly aircraft capable of bringing down another unarmed aircraft strongly and vehemently resent the term "Shoot Down ORDERS". That is an uninformed term that would NEVER, EVER be used by pilots who might be asked to do something like that.

The term best used is "SHOOT DOWN AUTHORIZATION". There is a HUGE difference.

There was an overreaction by authorities AFTER the attack was over that the Fighter Cap over Washington, DC were to "SHOOT DOWN" any aircraft violating the Washington Restricted Airspace. It rightfully disturbed the pilots who were flying that day and they discussed it on their "inter-aircraft" frequency.

It's involves the simply realization that those pilots flying the CAP over Washington and other US Cities would not have engaged NON-HOSTILE aircraft. There should be no question that they would have engaged a HOSTILE aircraft, but a helicopter or Cessna 172 who inadvertently strayed into that airspace would not necessarily have been engaged. It was pretty easy as most high level fast moving aircraft were grounded, but there were still "puddle jumpers" who hadn't gotten the word even later in the day.

Fighter Pilots are not preprogrammed zombies, they occasionally use their brain and their skill to do the job they are asked to do. While it may seem to be a minor issue to those who haven't been asked to do this, I can assure it is important to the Fighter Pilot Community. Thanks....

 

[Galileo]

I don’t think that the word “conflate” means what you think it does.

I think it does.

 

[Par]

I think it does.

I know.

 

[Sabrina]

Yes well, when the Oxford Dictionary agrees with you, maybe we'll understand; until then, expect people to ask you what the heck you're talking about on a fairly regular basis.

Fair warning; just saying.

ETA: That was directed at Galileo, not Par.

 

[Galileo]

Yes well, when the Oxford Dictionary agrees with you, maybe we'll understand; until then, expect people to ask you what the heck you're talking about on a fairly regular basis.

Fair warning; just saying.

ETA: That was directed at Galileo, not Par.

I'm glad to hear the Oxford Dictionary agrees with me.

This fits in with a pattern, as the Encylopedia Britannica and Roget's Thesaurus also agree with me.

 

[Spins]

There was an overreaction by authorities AFTER the attack was over that the Fighter Cap over Washington, DC were to "SHOOT DOWN" any aircraft violating the Washington Restricted Airspace. It rightfully disturbed the pilots who were flying that day and they discussed it on their "inter-aircraft" frequency.

It's involves the simply realization that those pilots flying the CAP over Washington and other US Cities would not have engaged NON-HOSTILE aircraft. There should be no question that they would have engaged a HOSTILE aircraft, but a helicopter or Cessna 172 who inadvertently strayed into that airspace would not necessarily have been engaged. It was pretty easy as most high level fast moving aircraft were grounded, but there were still "puddle jumpers" who hadn't gotten the word even later in the day.

Fighter Pilots are not preprogrammed zombies, they occasionally use their brain and their skill to do the job they are asked to do. While it may seem to be a minor issue to those who haven't been asked to do this, I can assure it is important to the Fighter Pilot Community. Thanks....

Yes, apart from members of the so called "9/11 Truth Movement", this certainly has never been in doubt. In fact I remember watching a documentary around the 5th anniversary of the attacks and in it a Fighter Pilot, who was in the air on 9/11, recollected how he (once the realization had set in that he may be required to shoot down a civilian airplane) tried to think of ways he could force an airplane down without killing everyone on board. Whether in hindsight this is even remotely possible or not isn't the point, it shows the pilots are human and fully understand the consequences of their actions unlike the picture many conspiracy theorists like to portray, that of a bunch sociopaths, willingly complicit in mass murder against their own country.