Norad?

[Par]

ETA: That was directed at Galileo, not Par.

I'm glad to hear the Oxford Dictionary agrees with me.

Do you only read every other word of a given piece of text? It would explain a lot.

 

[ZouPrime]

Fighter Pilots are not preprogrammed zombies, they occasionally use their brain and their skill to do the job they are asked to do. While it may seem to be a minor issue to those who haven't been asked to do this, I can assure it is important to the Fighter Pilot Community. Thanks....

********! Everybody knows that fighter pilots, just like the FDNY, the special forces, the FBI, the CIA and the MIB are trained since childhood to execute without question and reservation all orders given to them. That's why the dozen of people responsible for rigging the WTC with explosive will never come to light, as they don't know remorse and are pround to have followed the orders from their Master Bush without question.

I vividly remember a documentary where this was demonstrated when an senior FBI agent requested another to leave the scene of a bomb ready to explode, as he was willing to sacrifice himself to let it detonate and destroy a federal building. This was done in order to hide the death of a bunch of firefighters who had been slained while investigating a mysterious hole in the ground where an oil-like alien life force was lying dormant since eons before being discovered by a bunch of curious kids. A sad story really, but thanks to a maverick FBI agent and his hot red-headed partner human civilization was saved. I saw it on TV and it looked legit, ergo it is true.

 

[Reheat]

********! Everybody knows that fighter pilots, just like the FDNY, the special forces, the FBI, the CIA and the MIB are trained since childhood to execute without question and reservation all orders given to them. That's why the dozen of people responsible for rigging the WTC with explosive will never come to light, as they don't know remorse and are pround to have followed the orders from their Master Bush without question.

..

 

[gumboot]

If they weren't controlling the fighters, then who was? Please refer to the quote from my first post.

The fighters were controlled by the Weapons Team Commander at NEADS (Major Fox).

This clearly indicates it is an Navy controller who is talking to the fighters, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. Air Traffic Controllers normally talk to pilots of aircraft in their airspace.

Huh? Are you kidding? Didn't you read the 9/11 Commission Report? The most important communications of the day, the actual orders to the fighters in their cockpits, seem to have disappeared.

Then why are they on the NORAD tapes?

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

BTW (to all) how long does it take to scramble a couple of fighters and get them airborne?

Quit 2-5 and Quit 2-6 (The Langley fighters) were airborne at 0930EDT. They only flew in the wrong direction for four minutes. Allowing 8 minutes of incorrect flying direction (4 minutes out, 4 minutes back), and subtracting that from the time they arrived over Washington DC, we get an on-site arrival time of 1002EDT - too late to stop AA77.

-Gumboot

 

[RedIbis]

Quit 2-5 and Quit 2-6 (The Langley fighters) were airborne at 0930EDT. They only flew in the wrong direction for four minutes. Allowing 8 minutes of incorrect flying direction (4 minutes out, 4 minutes back), and subtracting that from the time they arrived over Washington DC, we get an on-site arrival time of 1002EDT - too late to stop AA77.

-Gumboot

I guess that 8 mins made all the difference.

 

[Spins]

I guess that 8 mins made all the difference.

It made all the difference with regards to what?

 

[Spins]

EDIT: Double post!

 

[gumboot]

I guess that 8 mins made all the difference.

That 8 minutes made no difference. Did you read my post before replying?

The Langley fighters arrived over Washington DC at 1010EDT. Is 1010 minus 8 minutes before or after 0937?

-Gumboot

 

[Reheat]

Quit 2-5 and Quit 2-6 (The Langley fighters) were airborne at 0930EDT. They only flew in the wrong direction for four minutes. Allowing 8 minutes of incorrect flying direction (4 minutes out, 4 minutes back), and subtracting that from the time they arrived over Washington DC, we get an on-site arrival time of 1002EDT - too late to stop AA77.

-Gumboot

Gumboot, Do you have a reference for that arrival time over DC or are you guessing? I thought they pulled the stops out after they realized the urgency.

 

[Spins]

Gumboot, Do you have a reference for that arrival time over DC or are you guessing? I thought they pulled the stops out after they realized the urgency.

They mention it here...

09:38:50
NASYPANY: We need to get those back up there—I don't care how many windows you break!… Goddammit! O.K. Push 'em back!

But the Pentagon is already in flames, American 77 having plowed through the E-ring of the west side of the building seconds before, at 9:37:46. The Langley fighters will not be established over Washington for another 20 minutes.

...

Then, over a crackly radio, one of the Langley fighter pilots, now in a combat air patrol over Washington, is calling in urgently.

10:07:08
PILOT: Baltimore is saying something about an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
CITINO: Negative. Stand by. Do you copy that, SD [Major Fox]? Center said there's an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
FOX: M.C.C. [Nasypany], we've got an aircraft reported over the White House.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true&currentPage=all

 

[Reheat]

Ah Ha! They were configured with drop tanks which severely limited their speed.

That's understandable as they don't have a lot of fuel without them.

 

[Spins]

Gumboot, Do you have a reference for that arrival time over DC or are you guessing? I thought they pulled the stops out after they realized the urgency.

With regards to the 9/11 Commission Report they talk about the arrival of the fighters over Washington here (emphasis mine)...

After the 9:36 call to NEADS about the unidentified aircraft a few miles from the White House, the Langley fighters were ordered to Washington,D.C. Controllers at NEADS located an unknown primary radar track, but “it kind of faded” over Washington.The time was 9:38.The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46.The Langley fighters were about 150 miles away.​

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf (Page 27)​

​

At the same time, the NEADS mission crew commander was dealing with the arrival of the Langley fighters over Washington,D.C., sorting out what their orders were with respect to potential targets. Shortly after 10:10, and having no knowledge either that United 93 had been heading toward Washington or that it had crashed, he explicitly instructed the Langley fighters: “negative—negative clearance to shoot” aircraft over the nation's capital.​

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf (Page 31)​

​

 

[Lensman]

I have had questions for some time about a NORAD incident in 1983. It seems after some failures by personnel to launch their missiles in drill scenerios, the US briefly put the entire system completely under computer control.

I have seen evidence that a young high school student was able to hack into the War Operation Plan Response computer at NORAD and convince it to run a simulation of global thermonuclear war. This began a chain of events that came seconds from ending in the launch of a comprehensive nuclear first strike against the Soviets.

My information indicates that NORAD was utterly unable to control its own systems and, in the end, the same teenager was the only one who could disable the computer.

Can you honestly deny this?

Not the movie "Fail Safe" (or "Failsafe"?)

The Movie was "WarGames", starring a young Matthew Broderick.
IMDb reference Here

 

[Reheat]

With regards to the 9/11 Commission Report they talk about the arrival of the fighters over Washington here (emphasis mine)...

Thanks Spin,

Seems that they did have drop tanks. That explains everything. I should have realized that previously.....

 

[PhantomWolf]

Quit 2-5 and Quit 2-6 (The Langley fighters) were airborne at 0930EDT. They only flew in the wrong direction for four minutes. Allowing 8 minutes of incorrect flying direction (4 minutes out, 4 minutes back), and subtracting that from the time they arrived over Washington DC, we get an on-site arrival time of 1002EDT - too late to stop AA77.

-Gumboot

I'd question the four minutes out and four minutes back. They went east instead of north, they wouldn't have retraced their steps back to the airforce base and then headed north, they would have swung about onto a North North West and gone from where they were. Certainly that would have taken slightly longer but not much. For simplisities sake, let's say the target was due north of the base, and they were flying due East. If their initial flying time should have been 20 mins, but they flew 4 minutes east, then the travel time from there to the target would only be 20 minutes and 40 secs, meaning an overall time of 24 minutes and 40 seconds. Now admittedly that is if everything is perfect angles and constant speeds. If the target was actually Northeast of the airbase it'd take slightly longer, if it was Northwest, then slightly shorter. However, whichever way it goes, 8 minutes would likely be the maximum possible time they lost, the likelihood is it was a lot less. (of course that makes the case of them getting there too late regardless even stonger.)

 

[Reheat]

However, whichever way it goes, 8 minutes would likely be the maximum possible time they lost, the likelihood is it was a lot less. (of course that makes the case of them getting there too late regardless even stonger.)

Yep, even if NEADS had known about AA77 and they had shoot down authority at the time of the launch from Langley it still would have been too late.

A troofer would calculate the top speed of an F-16 from Langley to the Pentagon not allowing for all of the things that have to happen before they can do that. Small things, you know, like going out over the water to drop their tanks. They could have then have stayed in full afterburner (going the speed of heat) toward AA77 and fired an AARAM at max range. Yea, it does happen like that in movies!

Other factors such as the maximum launch speed of an AARAM would not even be considered. According to my calculations I'd guess those folks at the Citgo Service Station are thankful it didn't happen like in the movies!

Added: The Vanity Fair does not include all of the radio conversations between the fighters and NEADS while they were enroute to DC. My guess is that Gumboot's times are pretty darn close!

 

[Hyperviolet]

Gumboot,

Can i ask where you get your extensive knowledge on the NORAD response?
Is this all derived from the Vanity Fair article and the 9/11 Commission?

Cheers!

 

[Cheap Shot]

Gumboot,

I have learned from one of your posts that it was actually Navy ATC controlling the fighters scrambled from Otis and Langley.

Who exactly were the Navy controllers who were handling the fighters? Who was the guy Huckabone wanted to choke? Do we know their names? What is their story? Where were they based? Were they housed inside the NEADS complex in upstate New York? Or were they out to sea at the time?

Cheap Shot, I would like to hear your input on this as well.

I.m not familiar with that conversation, but the two fighters at Otis were handed off to FACSFAC VACAPES (Fleet Area Control and Surveillance Facility, Virginia Capes) for a short period of time, my guess is the same could have happened down there. They control all of the warning areas from W-105 south of Nantucket, all the way down to South Carolina. There Call Sign is "Giant Killer". After the fighters got off from Otis, and the WTC had been reported to be hit, there was no real need for the fighters to go over the city, for what at that time was considered an accident. They were cleared into W-105. This also was obviously a mistake. Remember Boston Center did not know that UAL175 had been hijacked. That aircraft was hijacked on the frequency transfer from Boston to New York Center. After the second tower was hit the fighters were there lickity split.

My guess is they were in W-105 for no more than 4 to 5 minutes. How much difference could have that made. We just didn't know about UAL175, nor did NEADS.

The hijackers were damn lucky that day, little things like that just gives you so many "What Ifs".

 

[Cheap Shot]

We know that some of the initial accounts told to the 9/11 Commission regarding the responses of various entities were false. When the truth came out, the commission members remarked that the truth put everyone in a better light. As I understand it, the truth is what was included in the 9/11 CR, since this was exposed during the investigation.

Which leads to the question of where and why the false stories were told. It seems to me that the false stories inflate the abilities of the pre-9/11 entities to respond and communicate. A plausible reason for this, in my opinion, is to ward off any potential terrorist attacks by putting out misinformation about how close the US came to intercepting the flights. I welcome any comments yea or nay on this.

The military and the FAA at the time of the initial review by the 9-11 commision were basing their responses on the information available at the time. Though they did not have the exact conversation on tape why the Langley fighters were launched, they determined it was for AAL77 becasue that is what made sense at the time. When the other NEAD tapes were reviewed between September of 2002 through January 2003, the more precise information was revealed, that the fighters were actually launched for the Phantom AAL11, and that the military was never notified by the FAA regarding AAL77 except just prior to impact at the Pentagon.