Norad

[A W Smith]

It doesn't answer mine (not in a good way!) Planes can be tracked without their transponders.

here is a loose analogy
you have a room full of thousands of mosquito's, you can see all of them, identify the female.

 

[Ivan The Song Boy]

If NORAD was the legitimate professionals you say how do you account for the fact that they let 4 planes go unintercpeted on 9/11?

Either they were incompetent that day or they were told to stand down.

This is a ridicules simplification, of course. It is not at all hard to account for.. You have 4 aircraft that suddenly become primary targets on Radar {They turned OFF the transponder}. They are not even squawking VFR {1200 on a transponder}, they are now in a sea of other aircraft, giving no altitude information. This is a problem en route for ATC. Who knows how many aircraft they had to assign new headings, just because they either could not find the "new" primary targets, or they could see them but did not know their altitude.{ I believe both of these things were true, on and off} These people were very very busy making sure there were no collisions.. That's just a small part of this. Those who think that Radar still works without a transponder are only sort of right, depending on where you are in the country and what else is in the air, and how far from a sweep you are. Targets can and DO come and go. It is NOT a forgone conclusion that one can simply count on painting an object and getting a return. In fact, I believe that at least one of these aircraft were "in and out". The problems faced by ATC on this day were really huge. You underestimate this, of course, because YOU KNOW NOTHING!

Just when do you think it's time for the FAA to call NORAD on the phone and say, "Hey, um,, we have a plane here with no transponder on at all, could you blow him all to hell when you get a minute?". Who's supposed to call? After NORAD get's it, where does it go then? What do you tell the officers in the cockpits of these fighters when they go? How does one FIND a target from a fighter jet when there are 4000 aircraft over the country and all you know is that you are being vectored toward a piece of metal? Do you have the RIGHT piece of metal?

How do you suppose this all goes down?

The fact is, you don't know the first thing about any of this.. You don't. You are just making things up and pretending that NORAD should have "Magically known" there was something wrong. Who ever is feeding you this crap is a moron. This was NOT AT ALL what you think it was. The fact that they actually ended up having ten minutes {way less in some cases} is amazing. Under the circumstances, ATC did a great job under the rules they had.. {you think your complaint is with NORAD, but it is not.}

Have you read the accounts from ATC and the members of the military who made and received these calls? Are you calling them all a bunch of liars? Would you like to walk right UP TO THEM and claim all this? Or are you just a 9 year old who ended up with the keys to moms' computer?

The mind spins and spins.. Ouch...

 

[psy kick]

How important it is to get both sides. From people who know what they're talking about. It makes sense now.
Do conspiracy fans want this stuff to be true?
(thank you guys)

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Now as to why he did not address the nation whilst in flight, anything you or I would have to say on the matter is absolute speculation - we weren't there.

Actually, this was obliquely addressed on the recent History Channel special on Air Force 1: They simply didn't have the video capacity at the time (of course, that begs the question of why no radio message, but that's starting to drift from the point here). The camera crew was shown the in-flight teleconferencing system that AF1 has, and the airplane staff made it a point to say that the need for it became apparent after 9/11, so that's why it was installed.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

NORAD response basics links

All right, before anyone else comes up with any questions here, I recommend that those who haven't studied things yet refer to these basic primers on the days events:

• Gumboot's NORAD 9/11 Response timeline.
• Gumboot's NORAD Response background.
• Gravy's NORAD page.
• Vanity Fair's "NORAD Tapes" article.

I hate to sound like a teacher giving an assignment, but to call the information in those sources mandatory knowledge is to understate the case. People need to know the gist, if not all the details, of the information laid out in those sources. At minimum, if you're discussing response times, the Timeline link is absolutely necessary.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How important it is to get both sides. From people who know what they're talking about. It makes sense now.

Funnily enough when you ask experts and people that have studied the issue you quickly find that most CTs are neither experts, or have done little more than read CT sites with the same ignorant and incorrect claims. I'm constantly amazed about how wrong CTs constantly are. It's almost like they go out of their way to get things wrong because otherwise they'd get something right just by fluke. I have had a challenge open in this board for nearly a year now wanting just 1 fact (other then the date) that is proven and that the majority of the Truth Movement agree on. I still haven't gotten an answer. To me that is pretty telling.

Do conspiracy fans want this stuff to be true?
(thank you guys)

Not that I really want to answer for them, but it seems that yes they do.

 

[T.A.M.]

Do conspiracy fans want this stuff to be true?
(thank you guys)

This is a question that we debate here from time to time. I think most here would agree that to an extent they do. Many of the CTers that follow 9/11 truth, have a hatred for "Big Brother" a hatred for "authority". This contempt, this hatred, is fueled by Alex Jones and others. Why do you think, now that the Bush Admin is on the way out, AJ and others are now fabricating a story about how Obama is all part of the big vast conspiracy?

If the stuff is lies, then their world falls apart.

TAM

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Do conspiracy fans want this stuff to be true?

Of course. Ignorance of facts is the Ace of Spades sitting at the very bottom of their upside-down house of cards. Truthers for the most part can't even agree on a theory of what happened, all they agree on is that the government LIES about everything.

It is good that you are questioning some things in the Official Theory that you don't understand. It's even better that you seem to be able to recognize facts when they are presented to you.

 

[gumboot]

I have one, but screw the numbering etc.

Have you bothered to make up a timeline including all the stuff you have done like when the phone calls telling NORAD came in, when the phone calls from the planes came in, when NORAD did stuff, and when the Airlines told the FAA their planes had crashed. I think it'd be pretty handy. I was going to look through a heap of your threads to see if I could pull it all out, but figured I ask first.

My new Air War document has a more detailed timeline with all of that, however I've discovered some mistakes in the "official" documentation by listening to the NORAD recordings, so I'm transcribing all of them before completing my timeline. It's rather tedious work and something I haven't felt like doing lately, so it will take a while...

 

[JoeyDonuts]

My new Air War document has a more detailed timeline with all of that, however I've discovered some mistakes in the "official" documentation by listening to the NORAD recordings, so I'm transcribing all of them before completing my timeline. It's rather tedious work and something I haven't felt like doing lately, so it will take a while...

Please. Take your time. We're not going anywhere, and by the time you get done with it there may only be 2 or 3 truthers left to call you a government disinformation agent.

 

[gumboot]

gumboot, I will attempt to.
It was known a plane was off course and not responding (and planes can be tracked even with a transponder off) at what time?

Hi, first you need to specify "known by who?". The system is not one cohesive entity, nor a single hive mind, but numerous separate components, and each component had to be told. Here's some relevant times for each of the four flights:

American Airlines Flight 11
0814 - AA11 fails to respond to communication from Boston ARTCC
0825 - Boston ARTCC suspects AA11 has been hijacked.
0828 - Boston ARTCC notifies the FAA National Command Centre (ATCSCC) that AA11 is a suspected hijacking.
0832 - The ATCSCC notifies FAA Headquarters that AA11 is a suspected hijacking.
0834 - Boston ARTCC breach protocol and ask Cape Cod TRACON to contact Otis ANGB and request a fighter scramble.
0834 - Otis ANGB receive a call from Cape Cod TRACON about the hijacking and decide to prepare for Battle Stations while more information is gathered.
0837 - Boston ARTCC breach protocol and contact NEADS (NORAD) and request a fighter scramble.
0837 - Otis ANGB contact NEADS to report the hijacking and NEADS tells them they are working on the issue.
0838 - NEADS orders Otis fighters to "Battle Stations" (pilots in aircraft, ready to scramble)
0841 - Otis fighters achieve "Battle Stations"
0842 - (approx) AA11 drops below radar coverage
0844 - NEADS decide to scramble Otis fighters to AA11's last known position and to start tracking all unknown radar returns
0846 - Scramble order issued for Otis fighters - PANTA 4-5 and PANTA 4-6
0846 - AA11 impacts WTC1
0851 - NEADS learns an unknown aircraft has hit the WTC
0852 - PANTA airborne
0853 - PANTA are directed to a holding point off Lower Manhattan Bay, about 20nmi from the WTC

United Airlines Flight 175
0841 - Earliest potential time for hijacking
0846 - Latest potential time for hijacking
0846 - Transponder code changes twice in short time (ATC handling the flight is at the time focused on AA11 and does not notice)
0850 - NY ARTCC notices UA175s transponder code and asks them to recycle it
0852 - UA175 turns for NYC, NY ARTCC attempt to contact flight
0855 - NY ARTCC manager learns that UA175 is a suspected hijacking
0901 - NY ARTCC notifies the ATCSCC that UA175 is a suspected hijacking
0903 - UA175 impacts WTC2
0903 - NY ARTCC notifies NEADS that UA175 has been hijacked
0905 - NY ARTCC declares ATC Zero - closing their airspace to all air traffic

American Airlines Flight 77
0851 - Hijacking commences
0854 - AA77 deviates slightly from flightpath
0856 - Transponder turned off - because aircraft is in an area covered by a "beacon only" radar site, when the controller turns on primary radar coverage they cannot locate the flight, and assume it has crashed
0856 - Indianapolis ARTCC tries to contact AA77
0908 - Indianapolis ARTCC notifies the National Search and Rescue coordination center at Langley AFB that they believe AA77 has crashed.
0920 - Indianapolis ARTCC learns of the hijackings on the east coast and reassesses AA77.
0921 - Both Indianapolis ARTCC and the ATCSCC suspect AA77 has been hijacked.
0921 - Dulles TRACON and Washington ARTCC are instructed to look for unknown radar contacts.
0925 - The ATCSCC notifies FAA HQ that AA77 is "missing".
0925 - The ATCSCC orders a nationwide ground stop.
0932 - Dulles TRACON locate an unknown primary return travelling at high speed over Washington DC
0934 - Washington ARTCC mention to NEADS that AA77 is reported "missing"
0936 - Boston ARTCC notify NEADS that Dulles TRACON have an unknown contact over the White House
0936 - NEADS declare AFIO (priority declaration for Active Air Defense Missions) and direct two fighters from Langley AFB (who were on their way to Baltimore) to fly direct to the White House
0937 - AA77 impacts the Pentagon

United Airlines Flight 93
0928 - Aircraft is hijacked
0932 - Cleveland ARTCC notifies the ATCSCC that UA93 is a hijack with a bomb onboard
0934 - The ATCSCC notifies FAA HQ that UA93 is hijacked
0936 - Cleveland ARTCC asks the ATCSCC if military aircraft have been requested for UA93 - the ATCSCC tells them that decision has to be made by HQ
0940 - Boston ARTCC report to NEADS that Delta Flight 1989 has a bomb onboard

0941 - The ATCSCC notifies HQ that UA93 is eastbound and descending
0942 - The ATCSCC declares ATC Zero nationwide, closing US airspace for the first time in history
0946 - The ATCSCC notifies FAA HQ that UA93 is 29 minutes from Washington DC
0949 - The ATCSCC urges HQ to make a decision about fighters
0953 - HQ tell the ATCSCC they are discussing a fighter scramble
0954 - Selfridge AFB offers to NEADS to keep unarmed fighters in the air to intercept DA1989
0957 - Passengers on UA93 begin an attempt to seize control of the aircraft
1003 - UA93 crashes into a field near Shanksville, PA
1007 - Cleveland ARTCC notifies NEADS that UA93 is a hijack with a bomb onboard
1010 - US Military ordered to DEFCON THREE
1013 - The ATCSCC notifies FAA HQ that UA93 has crashed
1015 - Washington ARTCC notifies NEADS that UA93 has crashed

Planes hit the towers, and a third was flying toward capitol hill.

You appear to be referring to AA77. As you can see in my brief timeline above, no one knew AA77 was heading for Washington DC.

When was norad first alerted and when did they get a plane up?

PANTA flight, two F-15Cs from Otis ANGB, were scrambled at 0846 and were airborne at 0952.

QUIT flight, two F-16s from Langley AFB (with a third unarmed F-16 in tow) were scrambled at 0924 and were airborne at 0930.

How long between first known plane off course and liftoff?

If you're referring to AA11...

Between when ATC knew AA11 was off course and when PANTA were airborne - 27 minutes.

Between when NORAD knew about the hijacking and when PANTA were airborne - 15 minutes.

 

[gumboot]

(Gumboot: a question here. In your Timeline you have that this occured a 0854 and that at 0856 they realised it was a hijack and alerted the FAA. Could you recheck this, I thought they took longer than two minutes to discover this error.)

Yeah that old timeline is wrong. Indianapolis ARTCC learned about the east coast hijackings at about 0920 and by 0921 they and the ATCSCC were in agreement that AA77 had probably been hijacked.

I think that Flight UA93 was tracked on Secondary Radar until it crashed, but I may be wrong on that one.

UA93's transponder was turned off at 0941.

 

[gumboot]

I'm in Cleveland, and i think it was mistakenly announced on our news that one of the planes had landed in Cleveland and then went on again.

That was Delta 1989 which was a suspected hijacking because it had the same flight profile as the other flights and was in the same airspace as UA93 when the "bomb on board" transmission was received (contrary to popular belief, ATC controllers can't tell what aircraft a radio transmission is coming from).

Another, unrelated to Norad qestion:
Why did the president keep flying around instead of addressing the troubled citizens?

That question is off-topic. Start another thread if you want to discuss the President.

 

[Ivan The Song Boy]

Gumboot,

Thanks for doing this work.. It's very good of you.. Really.

Ivan..................

 

[gumboot]

There seems to be a bit of confusion about radar so I thought I'd just clear a few things up for everyone.

Firstly, when it comes to radar, there are two discreet systems in play here - the FAA system and the NORAD system. Each is independent, and due to the age of NORAD's system, it was impossible to data-share between systems, so any information that the FAA had, had to be given to NORAD manually - that means talking on the phone.

FAA System
The FAA system has both Primary and Secondary radar coverage over the entire USA. Normally primary coverage is turned off and ATC exclusively uses Secondary radar, however individual controllers can activate primary coverage for their sector pretty easily. They can also easily adjust filters that remove unwanted radar returns like ground clutter.

In addition, the FAA shares information between centres with a system called TSD - Traffic Situational Display. This is a read-out of all of the current aircraft in the air, and is accessed by all control centres. The Command Centres exclusively used TSD for their work. This system is not a reflection of the actual radar situation, but is a display of pre-scheduled flight paths for commercial flights. When ATC alter a flight path they can manually update the TSD. In addition the TSD can be monitored by the USSS. NORAD do not have access to the TSD.

NORAD System
NORAD receive radar feeds from the FAA, specifically from ARSR-4 radar sites positioned around the perimeter of the USA. They cannot see into the interior of the country. NORAD radar cannot be adjusted easily by controllers - technicians at the 84th RADES must make any changes to radar data feeds. By default radar data is amplified to maximise the amount of information on the screens. This is done to detect enemy infiltrators, but has the negative side effect of also increasing the amount of "noise" or ground clutter (unwanted radar returns). This isn't normally a problem for NORAD because ground clutter is minimal over the ocean which is where an enemy aircraft would be coming from.

Now, the implications of all of this are numerous, as relates to 9/11.

Firstly, ATC could easily continue to track an aircraft if the transponder was switched off by simply flicking over to primary radar coverage and continuing to follow the track, "painting" it with a manual identifier. This would only work if the controller handling the flight at the time noticed, otherwise it would be impossible to locate the specific flight.

However NORAD were not handling flights, so would not have noticed the moment of deactivation, and thus had to first find the flight, in amongst the numerous other primary returns and ground clutter. By the time NORAD knew about AA11 it was already descending rapidly and getting lost in the ground clutter of the eastern seaboard. They located the flight briefly then lost it again.

Secondly, ATCs updated flights with manual inputs into the TSD which further confused issues because other ATC centres ended up monitoring the TSD for progress - this is why UA93 was reported closing on Washington DC long after it had crashed, and this is why Boston ARTCC reported AA11 still airborne well after it had crashed (the "phantom" AA11).

 

[PhantomWolf]

Nice work Gumboot, I think the reason I couldn't locate info on the 93 transponder turn off was because it was so late after the hijack. Can't wait for the Timeline to be complete, but guess I'll have too.

 

[Cheap Shot]

It doesn't answer mine (not in a good way!) Planes can be tracked without their transponders.

The FAA and the military share some radar sites, the FAA can track the primary return, that is the RAW return of the aircraft skin and it displays on the FAA radar and miltiary radar. At high altitude FAA controllers do not have the promary selected. They have to turn it on. Takes a second to do this. Even the though the return is RAW it is still digitized. The NEADS Northeast Air Defense Sector from Rome, NY was the facility Boston Center and New York Center were in contact with. They operate under NORAD. The FAA deosn't like ground clutter so they use a system which used to be called MTI that reduces ground clutter. The military does the oppiste, they crank that ground clutter up so they can see anything coming from the coast from over water. Not to much ground clutter over the Atlantic. When advised to look in the vicinty of Albany NY, they were overwhelmed with ground clutter. They couldn't see the target, the FAA could. Simple as that. THe problem has been addressed and though some issues may remain unsolved this issue shouldn't happen again.

 

[psy kick]

It is good that you are questioning some things in the Official Theory that you don't understand. It's even better that you seem to be able to recognize facts when they are presented to you.

David Icke almost had me convinced. See, I hadn't known about radar or transponders but thought maybe Icke did.
Heck, when I first read Krassner's The Parts Left Out of the Kennedy Story, I believed it!

 

[JoeyDonuts]

David Icke wouldn't know a radar or transponder if a giant reptilian beat him upside the head with one.

 

[Ivan The Song Boy]

Gumboot,

Thanks again for this fine overview of both the time line and the potential Radar coverage..

Yes, I had read a number of times about the ground clutter problem for NORAD. It occurs to me now, that a secondary target on the FAA side going dark could make it either easier to track or harder, depending upon the gear. If a jet goes from their current squawk code to VFR {1200} they are still secondary, but if they go dark all together the ATC'er has to either literally move to a different screen or in some cases, they can switch the scoop in front of them to primary? I'll go look. If they had a good idea about heading air speed and geography before the jets went dark and can switch to primary fast enough and un-clutter it fast enough, it seems they could track it pretty well. I mean, how many primary targets will there be? Some for sure on a beautiful September morning but NONE at that air speed.

So, my earlier comment about having to find these jets in a "sea of jets" is probably wrong.. The problem is different than that.

I will go read more about the data blocks on the secondary radar, what the difference between A-C-S and so on transponders are, and what they shoot back to ATC in the way of data after interrogation. Pretty interesting stuff. I'm aware of the Traffic Situational Display system too, but need to know more about this.. This certainly ads to the confusion on that day.. Man, did those folks have their hands full or what? As if their gig isn't stressful enough.

Ivan.......................