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NIST Wind Driven Fire Studies

Agreed NYCEMT, He did just fine. ElMondo has explained quite elequently exactly what is wrong with Vinnie's assumptions.

We can also do these type scenarios without even building a scale building. We can it it with a single room, and extrapolate with computer simulations, and actually get quite the accurate results.
 
Still waiting for this test to be connected with 911 conspiracies.

I know there were buildings on fire on 911 but that is somewhat tenuous.

Can I just start some threads about plane crashes and let you guys join the dots?:rolleyes:
 
Still waiting for this test to be connected with 911 conspiracies.

Reading the explanations provided, by others. Leads one to think, that only a very dense person would state the above , again!
 
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Read the thread, for comprehension this time.

I have read it. Nobody has linked this to the WTC fires. The WTC fires were unfought, spread over several acres, in little or no wind, what does that have to do with this test? Nothing.
 
This test was meant to be an apartment building, nowhere is the wtc mentioned in the reports.

What is the connection?
 
This test was meant to be an apartment building, nowhere is the wtc mentioned in the reports.

What is the connection?

There is none vinniem. It's sort of how they try to keep comparing the WTC to things like toy factories and highway bridge collapses. You see, there is no comparison. None ever in the history of the world.
 
Still waiting for this test to be connected with 911 conspiracies.

I know there were buildings on fire on 911 but that is somewhat tenuous.

Can I just start some threads about plane crashes and let you guys join the dots?:rolleyes:

You see, this is your problem: Instead of discussion of relevant issues, you'd rather attack. This is why we're more than justified in lumping you in with all other truthers: You do not care about discovering the knowledge, you'd rather attack the discussion of it.

Of course there's no direct link between a study of structure fires and 9/11 conspiracies. These tests do not speak towards hijackings of airplanes or identification of terrorists. What they do do, however, is inform fire and structure researchers how fires progress in certain conditions. It doesn't directly apply to how it affects a structure built like the Twin Towers, but it does speak to the detail of how a fire progresses in windy conditions. It is basic knowledge, which serves as a building block that can be used to evaluate and reevaluate existing research such as the NIST report. Studies like this, like the Cardington Fire Tests, and others are used to build models of fire propogation, and the validity of those models are continually evaluated as time goes on. New research induces new evaluations. That's how knowledge progresses.

So, in spite of not having a direct link, how does this relate to 9/11 conspiracies? Well, implicit in the attack on NIST is the critique that their fire models are wrong; how many times do we see conspiracy peddlers claim that the tower fires could not have affected the tower in the way it did on 9/11? Sure, part of that misapprehension is due to the fact that you all find it convenient to ignore impact damage when you people forward that complaint, but a good deal of it comes from the fact that conspiracy fantasists say the NIST report cannot be right. These issues address a specific issue that can be applied to the Twin Towers: Fires and combatting it in windy conditions. It provides more knowledge to add to the existing body, and drives forward that body of knowledge. Eventually, the accumulation of such knowledge may modify what was concluded in the NIST report. It likely won't directly affect it by itself, but that's not the goal or the point: The point is to forward the general field. This is what these reports do.

So that's what the relation to the September 11th conspiracies is. Like practical aerodynamics to evaluate the various "bad pilot" claims, and like the somewhat specialized chemistry needed to understand Astaneh-Asl's observations, this is a study that adds to our knowledge of basic fire principles and fire fighting, and provides context necessary to evaluate various claims forwarded by truthers regarding firefighting. No, the studies don't directly address 9/11 or conspiracies. They don't have to in order to be relevant to our interests in this subforum; if you look at his history, NYCEMT86 has made a thread as well as a few posts aimed at giving a general, brief education into firefighting principles. That ends up being background knowledge. This is background knowledge about structure fires and practical firefighting of a wind driven fire.

That's the difference between you conspiracy advocates and the rest of us: We are interested in context and knowledge; you all are only interested in pushing a worldview. That's why you don't get how these reports are applicable: They're context and basic knowledge. Something too many of you ignore when you dive into 9/11 history.
 
There is none vinniem. It's sort of how they try to keep comparing the WTC to things like toy factories and highway bridge collapses. You see, there is no comparison. None ever in the history of the world.

I thought as much. Yeah the Kader toy factory often gets an airing when they are desperate.

Have a search for the thread on the toilet paper factory. It is hysterical.
 
There is none vinniem. It's sort of how they try to keep comparing the WTC to things like toy factories and highway bridge collapses. You see, there is no comparison. None ever in the history of the world.

Great strawman. My OP is in no way a comparison. This is the simple process of using applied sciences to the fundamental dynamics of all high rise fires, including the WTC.
 
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I thought as much. Yeah the Kader toy factory often gets an airing when they are desperate.

Have a search for the thread on the toilet paper factory. It is hysterical.

When the TM dolts say stuff like "Normal office fires won't hurt steel" we can show that to be absolutely false.

With toilet paper no less.


BTW, here is a link for your review. I would LOVE to know what you have to say about it.

http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153
 
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Back in 2008 the FDNY, Department of Homeland Security, NIST, and a few other major city Fire Departments conducted tests to study the effects of fire under heavy wind conditions.


Great post, NYCEMT. Thanks for that. An acquaintance/contact of mine (a FDNY Battalion Chief) was heavily involved in those studies, and sent along video that was taken of the burning of that 7 storey building quite some time ago. I'll try to see if I can find it, as it is quite impressive.
 
Great post, NYCEMT. Thanks for that. An acquaintance/contact of mine (a FDNY Battalion Chief) was heavily involved in those studies, and sent along video that was taken of the burning of that 7 storey building quite some time ago. I'll try to see if I can find it, as it is quite impressive.

No problem. I think it would be great if you add those videos to this topic and if your acquaintance has anything further to offer, it would be appreciated as well.
 
There is none vinniem. It's sort of how they try to keep comparing the WTC to things like toy factories and highway bridge collapses. You see, there is no comparison. None ever in the history of the world.
I thought as much. Yeah the Kader toy factory often gets an airing when they are desperate.

Have a search for the thread on the toilet paper factory. It is hysterical.

OH MY GAWD!

This is the same band of morons who think that beer cans and barbecues = skyscrapers:

it is easily testable, and i have done so:

stand an empty beer can (representing a 767 fuselage) on a BBQ grill (representing wtc perimeter columns) on 2 red bricks (steel reinforced concrete wtc floors) onto an iron fireplace grate (massive wtc core columns).
smash the beer can with a sledge hammer (representing the force that alleged 500mph momentum would generate).
observe how little (none!) of the beer can actually penetrates thru the BBQ grill.

replace the 2 red bricks (now cracked) with 2 fresh bricks and use a full beer can lying on it's side (representing a 767 wing with full fuel tanks).
again smash and observe!

stand the whole affair on edge and we have a far more accurate model of a real aluminum 767 (with a plastic nosecone) striking a massive steel and concrete wtc than either the bogus NIST diagrams or equally bogus fag purdue animation.

Burning rabbit cages = skyscrapers:

4_fire.jpg


A stack of childrens toy wooden blocks = skyscrapers:

I set up an experiment testing how a plane might break up upon impacting arrayed steel columns like the WTC wall. The plane and the columns were both constructed of similar pieces of wood (which here favors the plane, since in real life, aluminum is weaker than steel). The dimensions of the models were not perfect, but they were a rough match for the WTC and a 767. I did not put floors into the model, so this also favors the plane.

I pushed the plane forcefully into the "wall", and while the fuselage penetrated the wall after reasonably strong force was applied, the wings broke off at the root where the wings met the plane. The wings actually bent backwards and slid into the hole alongside the fuselage. The wood of the wings actually broke. A few "columns" broke where the fuselage went in, and a couple broke on either side of the fuselage hole, where the wings broke off-- but basically the array of columns were much stronger than the long wings.

A multi-storey rabbit cage = skyscrapers:

12.10.06%20pics%20023%20%282%29.jpg



A stack of toilet paper tubes = skyscrapers:


Page05.04.gif


A stack of plastic trays = skyscrapers:



(Shamelessly stolen, with at least one original find by myself, from Gravy's 9/11 denier humor page)

You idiots asked for examples of steel framed structures, not hit by anything, that collapsed to the ground from fire alone and that's what we gave you.

We asked for examples of your ideas and you gave us beer cans, childrens blocks, homeless bunnies, kindergarten arts and crafts projects and a man who knows he is fat and very little else vandalizing his employers office supplies. Everything but steel framed buildings behaving the way you think they should.

And you wonder why we think you're all mentally retarded?
 
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It is a test conducted on a 7 storey building with a wind of 20mph added.

It has NOTHING to do with 911 whatsoever.
It's quite clear to anybody capable of critical thought. It was as many storeys as were on fire in the towers. Totally applicable model.
 

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