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Split Thread Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

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Fast Eddie B said:
Not sure of the time frame, but Tesla definitely has plans to open its Supercharger network to other brands.

Pros: Could end up being a huge revenue source going forward, plus it may entitle them to more government incentives for doing so.

Cons: Nothing will disillusion current Tesla owners faster than having to wait for a Supercharger because the stalls are filled with other brands. Right now, a major selling point for Tesla is their Supercharger network. That selling point vanishes if any EV can use it. Tesla will need to continue to grow its Supercharger network to keep up with demand.
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Agreed. Short term gain, but would stifle their sales advantage.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I understand BEVs don’t work for as many people as a PHEV would. I was just pointing out the one real advantage Tesla currently has over its competitors: you get twice as many charging points, more or less.

So, more areas are drivable in a Tesla BEV than in a VAG, Stellantis, GM, Korean Twin, or Ford BEV.

But that may not mean that your area is driveable in any BEV, yet.
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Its not *just* that it won't work for me (that was part of my point though).

But, lets say there were plenty of charging points for when I do go for out of town road-trips, thats only going to be maybe 12 or 15% of my total mileage. So, is it worth it from a pollution point of view (in addition to a financial one) to tow around a battery that is 4 to 6 times bigger on a Tesla than on a Prius instead of burning maybe 60 gl's of gas a year? I really don't think so. Extracting rare-earth minerals and manufacturing the battery currently means carbon emissions and quite a lot actually. The extra battery weight also means more energy usage, and its not as if I can just decide what source my power comes from.

If I needed the range all the time that a Tesla gives then it likely works out that the Tesla is most energy efficient. Someone who has a 100 mi daily commute, will likely be better of with a full BEV though. But I don't think that applies to most people, they'll only be using the ICE on a PHEV that has a 38 mile range on rare occasions.

ETA: in other words, having a small battery with an ICE backup versus just a large battery might actually be best for the environment.
 
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dudalb said:
Forgive me, but you seem opposed to the mere idea of Private Space Travel;
What is wrong with a government hiring a private company to do work if it is the most economical way to get it done?
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Well then let the agency that knows what they need do the hiring. The US government instead threw money at a well known pair of welfare queens.

Private companies are not the be all and end all of innovation, especially when it comes to big projects.
 
Lplus said:
There are those who don't care if it's the most economical way or not, if it's private enterprise it's bad.
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And there are those who think public enterprise is always bad. They make the decisions and we get stuff like private train franchises costing the UK government twice as much (and passengers many multiples more) for half the service.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
The day after the EU rules they have to for the single market.
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In EU Tesla cars are delivered with a CCS charge port. Older Tesla cars can be rebuilt to support CCS charging.

All Superchargers are CCS (or have two cables, one of them being CCS).

So all Teslas can charge from basically any charging station in EU.

Tesla have opened some of their Superchargers to others EV, so far mostly stations that have available capacity.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
Well then let the agency that knows what they need do the hiring. The US government instead threw money at a well known pair of welfare queens.

Private companies are not the be all and end all of innovation, especially when it comes to big projects.
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That's the thing... There isn't really that much "innovation" here.

Ok, spaceX has a few new tricks (like reusable boosters, and they have a much slicker layout for the capsule controls) but sending stuff to low Earth orbit should be seen as almost routine by now.

Let companies like spaceX or Boeing handle stuff that's been done before, and let NASA concentrate on the stuff that really pushes the science and engineering.

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Not sure of the time frame, but Tesla definitely has plans to open its Supercharger network to other brands.



Pros: Could end up being a huge revenue source going forward, plus it may entitle them to more government incentives for doing so.



Cons: Nothing will disillusion current Tesla owners faster than having to wait for a Supercharger because the stalls are filled with other brands. Right now, a major selling point for Tesla is their Supercharger network. That selling point vanishes if any EV can use it. Tesla will need to continue to grow its Supercharger network to keep up with demand.
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If Tesla were smart they would set up their network stations to have a mix of tesla-only and non-tesla stations.

If they have a dozen chargers make half tesla only and half able to charge both Tesla and non Tesla's.

That way Tesla owners won't be as upset over stalls being used by other brands, and Tesla gets the extra revenue from mixed use stalls (plus there may be government subsidies for installing charge points but which might not be available to tesla-exclusive stations.)

Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
Well then let the agency that knows what they need do the hiring. The US government instead threw money at a well known pair of welfare queens.

Private companies are not the be all and end all of innovation, especially when it comes to big projects.
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Private enterprise tends, overall, to be less innovative and risk-taking.
That agency would probably be the Federal Highway Administration.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Its not *just* that it won't work for me (that was part of my point though).

But, lets say there were plenty of charging points for when I do go for out of town road-trips, thats only going to be maybe 12 or 15% of my total mileage. So, is it worth it from a pollution point of view (in addition to a financial one) to tow around a battery that is 4 to 6 times bigger on a Tesla than on a Prius instead of burning maybe 60 gl's of gas a year? I really don't think so. Extracting rare-earth minerals and manufacturing the battery currently means carbon emissions and quite a lot actually. The extra battery weight also means more energy usage, and its not as if I can just decide what source my power comes from.

If I needed the range all the time that a Tesla gives then it likely works out that the Tesla is most energy efficient. Someone who has a 100 mi daily commute, will likely be better of with a full BEV though. But I don't think that applies to most people, they'll only be using the ICE on a PHEV that has a 38 mile range on rare occasions.

ETA: in other words, having a small battery with an ICE backup versus just a large battery might actually be best for the environment.
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Probably off topic, but you need more than 60 gallons of fuel. You need the not so simple hybrid system, too. I’m agreeing that it is an interesting analysis, but has little to do with Tesla.

Whereas, the charging infrastructure Tesla has developed is likely the key to their future. Can Tesla exist as a battery provider and charging service company that also sells cars? Or will they be a battery provider and charging service company that used to sell cars?

I’m not really sure at this point.

ETA: The other large pot of untapped value in Tesla is the driving data they continue to collect. But that’s not a driver for those making purchases.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
Its not *just* that it won't work for me (that was part of my point though).

But, lets say there were plenty of charging points for when I do go for out of town road-trips, thats only going to be maybe 12 or 15% of my total mileage. So, is it worth it from a pollution point of view (in addition to a financial one) to tow around a battery that is 4 to 6 times bigger on a Tesla than on a Prius instead of burning maybe 60 gl's of gas a year? I really don't think so. Extracting rare-earth minerals and manufacturing the battery currently means carbon emissions and quite a lot actually. The extra battery weight also means more energy usage, and its not as if I can just decide what source my power comes from.

If I needed the range all the time that a Tesla gives then it likely works out that the Tesla is most energy efficient. Someone who has a 100 mi daily commute, will likely be better of with a full BEV though. But I don't think that applies to most people, they'll only be using the ICE on a PHEV that has a 38 mile range on rare occasions.

ETA: in other words, having a small battery with an ICE backup versus just a large battery might actually be best for the environment.
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I think it is best to phase out gasoline, and all the gas stations (they will convert), and all the trucks that deliver the fuel, and everything else associated.

Didn't Tesla say they have a 700 mile car coming out? Takes away excuses from people like my Dad - "300 miles isn't enough!" (and btw...poor you)

Guys on the fishing forum I used to frequent are saying they're going to use ICE as long as possible. They don't realize maybe that it will get very expensive, supply and demand, plus new regulations and fees that may be applied to the providers and to drivers. You will pay extra taxes if you still drive ICE vehicles.

However there may be limited demand for gas for a long time. Fine, but it will get very expensive.
 
mgidm86 said:
I think it is best to phase out gasoline, and all the gas stations (they will convert), and all the trucks that deliver the fuel, and everything else associated.

Didn't Tesla say they have a 700 mile car coming out? Takes away excuses from people like my Dad - "300 miles isn't enough!" (and btw...poor you)

Guys on the fishing forum I used to frequent are saying they're going to use ICE as long as possible. They don't realize maybe that it will get very expensive, supply and demand, plus new regulations and fees that may be applied to the providers and to drivers. You will pay extra taxes if you still drive ICE vehicles.

However there may be limited demand for gas for a long time. Fine, but it will get very expensive.
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That's as all may be. But I still think some analysis needs to be done on the environmental impact of towing around a huge lithium battery of which you almost never need the entire capacity of, versus using gasoline on a few occasions. Also long haul battery powered trucking is easily, and I mean at least, 20 years away. I'd expect more like 30. There's gonna be plenty of gas/diesel stations in the US for the rest of my life.

This is getting pretty OT though.
 
lobosrul5 said:
That's as all may be. But I still think some analysis needs to be done on the environmental impact of towing around a huge lithium battery of which you almost never need the entire capacity of, versus using gasoline on a few occasions. Also long haul battery powered trucking is easily, and I mean at least, 20 years away. I'd expect more like 30. There's gonna be plenty of gas/diesel stations in the US for the rest of my life.

This is getting pretty OT though.
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Not to join in an already OT conversation, but I'm going to add, I think the only way they'll manage to electrify over the road trucking will be to completely rethink the way the batteries are used. I envision some form of quick swap battery set up where the truck would pull into a 'station' and a sort of forklift like device removes the drained batteries and installs a set of fresh charged replacements in roughly the same amount of time a refuel used to require. I can't see any other practical way to provide the amount of stored energy over the road trucking will require. Ten-four good buddy, I'm out and down.
 
Mike! said:
Not to join in an already OT conversation, but I'm going to add, I think the only way they'll manage to electrify over the road trucking will be to completely rethink the way the batteries are used. I envision some form of quick swap battery set up where the truck would pull into a 'station' and a sort of forklift like device removes the drained batteries and installs a set of fresh charged replacements in roughly the same amount of time a refuel used to require. I can't see any other practical way to provide the amount of stored energy over the road trucking will require. Ten-four good buddy, I'm out and down.
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If we are going OT, another problem for trucking is the max weight. Adding enough battery takes away cargo capacity.
 
Dr. Keith said:
If we are going OT, another problem for trucking is the max weight. Adding enough battery takes away cargo capacity.
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You'd lose the weight of the diesel engine, though I don't know how heavy an electric would be. No diesel fuel, which is also heavy and takes space.

Definitely an issue.

Extremely quick search, I didn't double check anything....

Current EVs generally weigh hundreds if not thousands more pounds than comparable internal-combustion vehicles due to heavy battery packs, and that might compromise road safety.
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Hmmm. Well we may need to live with smaller loads for now. There will be compromises, especially at first.

Also, no more trucks hauling petrol around will be nice. Every gas station in every city and tiny town has these trucks delivering fuel constantly. Not anymore! I wonder if that would make a dent? Now they can deliver other things perhaps making up the difference? Sort of.

My Dad's complaint that he can't go far enough on a charge doesn't outweigh the need to be kinder to the environment. Sorry, Dad, that's the trade off. And one day it won't be a problem.

Also, that's a lot of friggin batteries to make and discard, especially world wide. Lots of issues to tackle.

The technology will improve and that's been interesting to see so far.
 
Many EV types are specific to a battery type. Probably for type of charge circuit installed.

Make the car a generic set voltage setup with a universal type charge circuit. Give all cars a universal battery size and compartment. Now as battery technology improves one could just change to new tech without changing to a new car. The battery pack would be adjusted to use the universal circuit.

Or you could run your lead acid commuter battery pack for work as the road trip lithium unit is at home charging up for the weekend vacation.
If one gets unreliable it's not too difficult to do a core trade for a fresh unit.

Trucks could just use several standard packs depending on how far or power requirements. Locals carry one or two, interstate traffic more.
 
It only took two decades for regulators in the EU to force cellphone makers to standardize their charging connector.
 
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