Morality through enforcement

[saizai]

It seems like an oxymoron to me, but this seems to be the usual (only?) take from judeochristian religions.

Namely: do X because you'll be rewarded if you do and punished if you don't.

Not: do X because it's the right thing to do, even though you're not going to get anything out of it and might even be punished for doing it

Whereas I, an agnostic, try to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not out of any hope for salvation or fear of damnation.

It comes down to what sociologists would call a fundamental difference between obtaining behavior through internalization vs obedience.

Obedience will be rebelled against if the controls are ever released.
Internalization will not.

Tellingly, Christians very frequently pose morality in just such terms: that if we didn't have the bible, people would act with no concern for their fellow man, totally selfishly, etc.

IOW: they fundamentally believe that people only do the right thing if they are forced to.

I find that bizarre and a bit abhorrent. And scary - are they all potential serial killers just too scared of hell to do it?

 

[Meadmaker]

It seems like an oxymoron to me, but this seems to be the usual (only?) take from judeochristian religions.

Namely: do X because you'll be rewarded if you do and punished if you don't.

Not: do X because it's the right thing to do, even though you're not going to get anything out of it and might even be punished for doing it

Whereas I, an agnostic, try to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not out of any hope for salvation or fear of damnation.

It comes down to what sociologists would call a fundamental difference between obtaining behavior through internalization vs obedience.

Obedience will be rebelled against if the controls are ever released.
Internalization will not.

Tellingly, Christians very frequently pose morality in just such terms: that if we didn't have the bible, people would act with no concern for their fellow man, totally selfishly, etc.

IOW: they fundamentally believe that people only do the right thing if they are forced to.

Back when I was a Catholic, they taught us about acts of "perfect contrition" and acts of "imperfect contrition". An act of perfect contrition occurred when you recognized that you had sinned and promised to attempt to never do it again, because you recgonized it was wrong to do it.

An act of "imperfect contrition" occurred when you recognized that you have sinned, and you promise never to do it again out of fear of punishment, whether temporal or eternal.

In other words, your ideas are right in line with the Catholic Church.

I find that bizarre and a bit abhorrent. And scary - are they all potential serial killers just too scared of hell to do it?

Fear of Hell is the backup plan.

 

[Huntster]

Morality through enforcement

It seems like an oxymoron to me, but this seems to be the usual (only?) take from judeochristian religions......

Unfortunately, that is the common perception.

When I turned from "fear of the Lord" to "love of the Lord", everything changed.

 

[Meri]

Tellingly, Christians very frequently pose morality in just such terms: that if we didn't have the bible, people would act with no concern for their fellow man, totally selfishly, etc.

IOW: they fundamentally believe that people only do the right thing if they are forced to.

It seems like it. I don't know how many times religious people have said to me something along the lines of "But if there's no god, then why bother to be good?"

 

[Meadmaker]

It seems like it. I don't know how many times religious people have said to me something along the lines of "But if there's no god, then why bother to be good?"

But they aren't saying, "Go ahead, you won't get caught." Or, "There's no law against it." or anything like that. In their minds, all morality comes from God. God is absolute, and defines, by his nature, what is good and what is bad. So, they believe, without God, the words "good" and "bad" don't make much sense.

Think of it this way. There was a phase where Christians loved wearing "What would Jesus do?" bracelets. The thought behind that was that there was a correct thing to do, and Jesus would have done it. You should try to be like Jesus, and do whatever it was that he would have done.

The fear of punishment scenario would be different. It would be bracelets that say "Jesus is watching you! Be good or go to Hell!" The thought behind that would be that you should do certain things, or God will kick your buttocks for eternity.

I'm not saying they're right. I'm not much into the whole God thing. I'm just saying that the portrayal of what Christians et. al. do, and why they do it, isn't really accurate. Christians believe that there is right, and there is wrong, and God only does right, and you should too. And just to provide a little incentive, they say that you'll spend an eternity in a lake of fire if you don't get it right.

 

[Dancing David]

I upset people by telling them that as an atheist you are under a moral burden to do the right thing, youe acts are all that you have and you don't get a second chance.

Seems to make some people very uncomfortable. Like the idea of accountability.

 

[Correa Neto]

To say "those are God's rules, so I must follow them" do not seem to be a very... uhm... Rational perspective.

Sure, it takes a big burden from the shoulders of those who actually do not enjoy thinking too much. The same is valid for the similar "I'll follow it because otherwise I'll go to hell" line of reasoning.

Its not sincere. The person is not following the rules because he/she actually thnks they are the propper behavior. If it weren't for the pusnishment, the individual would not follow the rules.

Its one of the major issues regarding the concept of punishment for a sin IMHO.

 

[Loss Leader]

It seems like an oxymoron to me, but this seems to be the usual (only?) take from judeochristian religions.

Namely: do X because you'll be rewarded if you do and punished if you don't.

Not: do X because it's the right thing to do, even though you're not going to get anything out of it and might even be punished for doing it

I disagree with your characterization of this as "Judeo-Christian." The concepts you discuss are not Jewish. As a rule, Jews do not believe in punishment for misdeeds or reward for obedience either in life or in the afterlife. The cost of sin is that you alienate yourself from God, your community and even your own self.

 

[blutoski]

I disagree with your characterization of this as "Judeo-Christian." The concepts you discuss are not Jewish. As a rule, Jews do not believe in punishment for misdeeds or reward for obedience either in life or in the afterlife. The cost of sin is that you alienate yourself from God, your community and even your own self.

This is my observation, as well. In fact: the whole punishment thing is just one aspect of Christianity, and arguably a last-minute add-on as well. Revelations being very distinct from the message of the Gospels, for example.

Many Jews do not believe in an afterlife at all, and the closest thing they have to 'heaven' is 'living closer to God's intention for us.' Coming up short is its own punishment.

At the risk of provoking a stereotype, it would look like this: "For this I laboured six days? Oy."

 

[Ladewig]

I upset people by telling them that as an atheist you are under a moral burden to do the right thing, youe acts are all that you have and you don't get a second chance.

Seems to make some people very uncomfortable. Like the idea of accountability.

Really? All the atheists that I've encountered seem comfortable with the idea. Could you elaborate on on these folks and their uncomfortability?

 

[Dancing David]

Really? All the atheists that I've encountered seem comfortable with the idea. Could you elaborate on on these folks and their uncomfortability?

Did I phrase that poorly, the people I have upset are usualy long suffering Xians, or so they seem to me. And the idea that someone might do the right thing without the fear of punishment or a cool parking space in heaven seems to upset them.

 

[Loss Leader]

Did I phrase that poorly, the people I have upset are usualy long suffering Xians, or so they seem to me. And the idea that someone might do the right thing without the fear of punishment or a cool parking space in heaven seems to upset them.

I, too, have met religious people who qutomatically equate atheism with nihilism. They think an atheist cannot conceive or execute moral behavior.

 

[Beerina]

Back when I was a Catholic, they taught us about acts of "perfect contrition" and acts of "imperfect contrition". An act of perfect contrition occurred when you recognized that you had sinned and promised to attempt to never do it again, because you recgonized it was wrong to do it.

So if you stop playing with yourself because you're afraid of hairy palms, that's an act of imperfect contrition. But if you stop playing with yourself because God is a sexually-repressed psychopath it's wrong, that's perfect contrition? I got it! I think I've got it!