[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[Cleon]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

That site is referring to funerary cremation, not mass body disposal. Weak straw to grasp at.

 

[Belz...]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

At what temperature ?

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Assuming that the most famous death camp the world has ever known followed the same cremation practices as your friendly local crematorium, yes. Otherwise it simply means that they had the capacity to cremate about two hundred bodies at a time.

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

 

[SDC]

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

Balfour was 1917. That was a different war. And the British have often regretted it.

Which transfer?

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

At what temperature ?

Between 1,500 degrees F to 2,000 degrees F.

 

[SDC]

Holocaust archives are open

I've referred to this several times. I especially would like Atrain, Magz, Kageki and JdG and any other Holocaust deniers to see this, but everyone interested should be aware. A report from today's Assoc Press states that the German archives related to the Holocaust, held in Bad Arolsen for decades, are now open to researchers. The files had been entrusted to the International Tracing Service (ITS) of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and have been available for limited, mediated searching (that's a library term, meaning that the archival staff had to do the footwork, not the requester).

"Yesterday [28 Nov], the Red Cross and the German government announced that the last of the 11 countries that govern the archive had ratified a 2006 agreement to open the files to the public for the first time...

"The records are unlikely to change the general story of the Holocaust and the Nazi era, probably the most intensely researched 12-year period of the 20th century.

"But its depth of detail and original documentation will add texture to the history's worst genocide, and is likely to fuel a revival of academic interest in the Holocaust."

I know it will mean nothing to the deniers, whose belief in Jewish evil transcends all documentation and data, testimony and eyewitness accounts, photographs and confessions. But it should mean a lot to others.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NAZI_ARCHIVE?SITE=TXMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

 

[Belz...]

3-4 hours at 2000F ? Did they burn all the bodies to ash, in the camps ?

 

[SDC]

This is from the same AP article I just quoted and linked to. Good news for anyone in North America or Israel who wants to research into the Holocaust:
"The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem began receiving digital copies of the entire archive in August, allowing survivors and historians more access points."

 

[Pushkin]

Kageki.

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

Kageki - you yourself have made it clear that this thread should be limited to a discussion of the Holocaust but if the moderators will allow me a little latitude...

As SDC has made clear the Balfour Agreement and declaration were designed in the immediate aftermath of the Great War. Is it your theory that these were intimately involved with the design and planning of the Holocaust?

The Transfer Agreement applies to a movement of 50000 Jews out of Germany and to Palestine in 1933. It was apparently a negotiation between Zionists and the German authorities and written up in a book by Edwin Black. It looks both well researched and controversial (Black's work not Kageki's). Kageki - I cant find any mention in the stuff online that these escapees helped in the design of the holocaust or indeed knew the full horror of what was awaiting those not lucky enough to escape 1933 germany. How does this fit into the plan?

And it really doesn't answer my previous post namely - even if, and its a big if, the Holocaust was designed with the knowledge of even one Jew how did they bring off the 1 million real deaths turning into 6 million? i would really appreciate it if you could read the thrust of my post 1580 about the ingredients for a post war conspiracy. The Transfer Agreement and the Balfour Declaration were all done and dusted before the Holocaust even started.

am i missing something here?


Thanks in advance

 

[drkitten]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

[qimg]http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg[/qimg]

[/QUOTE]

By using the other forty-seven ovens that aren't pictured in that photograph, and putting them into the ovens in small groups of four or so as the documented procedures, design papers, and related patent applications demanded (and as the surviving workers testify was the procedure). Of course, no modern funeary crematorium would group corpses together, but that was not only standard practice for the Nazi's, but a key aspect of the design to allow for greater throughput.

Fifty ovens, four people per oven, yields 200 cremations at a time. Run the ovens for 3 hours per group, 24 hours per day, and you get a capacity of about 1600 bodies per day, in-line with the design specifications.

 

[Belz...]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

[qimg]http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg[/qimg]

That's like showing one toilet from a big shopping mall and asking how they can possibly accomodate all the shoppers for a day.

 

[Pak43]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours.

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.
At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

Pop quiz hotshot?
Which of these figures is the more likely to be accurate?
a) The one from the guy who designed it specifically for the application of burning large amounts of bodies
or
b) Some figure pulled from a site relating to a completely different context.
or
c) The one denounced by someone who regards it as "not very likely"

Is this absolutely the best evidence you can come up with? Absolutely the best? I mean come on, I'd be embarrassed to enter a debate with the kind of weak, circumstantial evidence you've presented so far...

Right now I'm with Gravy, answer his damned question already...you've been dodging it for long enough....I'm out of this debate until you face Gravy's question...

 

[dudalb]

Between 1,500 degrees F to 2,000 degrees F.

I feel That being tempted by the Dark Side,Jerome is....
Seriously,guy, you are coming off like a Holocaust Denier who is not doing a very good job of shielding his beliefs.
If you want to defend the Denier's right to free speech and to puke out their garbage, I would agree with you, Making matyrs out of them is a mistake. But trying to defend their beliefs themselves is a big,big,mistake.

 

[LashL]

This is from the same AP article I just quoted and linked to. Good news for anyone in North America or Israel who wants to research into the Holocaust:
"The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem began receiving digital copies of the entire archive in August, allowing survivors and historians more access points."

I just popped in to post the story about the Red Cross archives being opened, but I see that you've already got it covered.

Here's a link to the Reuters story anyway.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL28727088

 

[ktesibios]

Here is a scan of a cremation report from the Gusen sub-camp, covering cremations between Oct. 26, 1941 and Nov. 12, 1941. The mean "production" was 43.33... corpses per day; on November 7 they cremated 94 bodies in 20 hours in a small 2-muffle crematorium (the Auschwitz crematoria had a total of 52 muffles).

And here is a report made in 1943 to SS-Brigadefuehrer Kammler about the capacity of the Aushwitz crematoria. It estimates their 24-hour capacity as 4,756 bodies.

And here are the manufacturer's operating instructions for the Auschwitz crematoria. Relevant bits:

Once the cremation chamber (muffle) has been brought to a good red heat (approximately 800C), the corpses can be introduced one after another in the cremation chambers.

Now the pulsed air blower situated to the side of the furnace should be switched on and run for about 20 minutes, ensuring that the two cremation chambers do not receive too much or too little fresh air...

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a further 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in the container and set aside to cool.

In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other into the chambers. The two coke furnaces must be fed with fuel from time to time.

After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this reason, care must be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above 1100C (white heat). This increase in temperature can be avoided by introducing additional fresh air.

The contrast between the recommended practice of the modern funeral industry and that of an organization which needs to dispose of human bodies on an industrial scale should be obvious, as should the folly of expecting the former to be a guide to the capabilities of the latter.

These are primary source documents written by the very people who designed, built and operated the crematoria, Jerome. They trump the speculations of wannabee Nazi apologists. Moreover, thanks to the efforts of real researchers, this material is readily available online, where an iggerant uneddicated layman like myself could find them in less than a minute.

The availability of solid historical material is such that there is no excuse for remaining ignorant. Dig?

Now, let's put some of this in perspective. Between 1980 and 2003 the mean number of deaths per year in all of Los Angeles County was 60817.125, during which time the population varied from ca. 7,500,000 to ca. 9,900,000 (the number of deaths stayed at around 60,000/year while the population increased by over 2 million. We're getting healthier here). Source

At Auschwitz they built 5 crematoria which their own technical people expected to be capable of burning nearly 5,000 bodies in 24 hours. While the peak population of the entire Auschwitz complex was around 155,000, it was provided with the capacity to, in less than two weeks, dispose of the bodies of everyone who died in an entire year in a county with a population 63 times bigger. (total deportations to Auschwitz are estimated at about 1.3 million, but the number of prisoners in the camp complex at any one time peaked at about 155,000).

Obviously the camp administration was expecting a death rate many hundreds of times greater than that of a normal society, and they provided the infrastructure to cope with it.

One has to ask, why did they anticipate being so bountifully supplied with dead bodies? Why did they expect the inmates to die at such a rate that they would expend the money and effort to provide permanent facilities for disposing of corpses at such a rate?

More information and technical discussion here and here

 

[timhau]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

[qimg]http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg[/qimg]

If I recall my visit correctly, that is a picture of the crematorium in Auschwitz I. The real death factory was Auschwitz II.

 

[Chaos]

I've referred to this several times. I especially would like Atrain, Magz, Kageki and JdG and any other Holocaust deniers to see this, but everyone interested should be aware. A report from today's Assoc Press states that the German archives related to the Holocaust, held in Bad Arolsen for decades, are now open to researchers. The files had been entrusted to the International Tracing Service (ITS) of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and have been available for limited, mediated searching (that's a library term, meaning that the archival staff had to do the footwork, not the requester).

"Yesterday [28 Nov], the Red Cross and the German government announced that the last of the 11 countries that govern the archive had ratified a 2006 agreement to open the files to the public for the first time...

"The records are unlikely to change the general story of the Holocaust and the Nazi era, probably the most intensely researched 12-year period of the 20th century.

"But its depth of detail and original documentation will add texture to the history's worst genocide, and is likely to fuel a revival of academic interest in the Holocaust."

I know it will mean nothing to the deniers, whose belief in Jewish evil transcends all documentation and data, testimony and eyewitness accounts, photographs and confessions. But it should mean a lot to others.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NAZI_ARCHIVE?SITE=TXMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I fear you are quite wrong. This means quite a bit to the deniers. The various Nazi fanboys infesting the relevant subforum at www.skepticforum.com are already crowing about how this will spell the end of the "Ugly Myth", as they call reality.

I mean, just think of it... millions of documents more that they can ignore and distort in order to promote their lies... what´s not to like, for a Nazi fanboy?

 

[SDC]

I fear you are quite wrong. This means quite a bit to the deniers. The various Nazi fanboys infesting the relevant subforum at www.skepticforum.com are already crowing about how this will spell the end of the "Ugly Myth", as they call reality.

I mean, just think of it... millions of documents more that they can ignore and distort in order to promote their lies... what´s not to like, for a Nazi fanboy?

Sad to say, you are right in this. A quick glance -- all I could stand, today -- shows statements along these lines: "and all these documents have been pored over for decades but none proves anything!" Or words to that effect. Terribly sad.

 

[SDC]

Chaos, I'm very sorry to say that you're right. I just glanced at that site (all I could stand, today), and some are claiming that there is nothing in all this material that proves a thing. What a waste.

 

[Pushkin]

I was following some of the links that Ktesibios put at the bottom of his latest post. Idly clicking through to a reference of a Sonderkommando who worked at Auschwitz by the name of Henryk Tauber. I can't post links but google him and click the first link.

It's a translation of his experiences from the transport from the warsaw ghetto to his eventual escape. It's not going to persuade Magz or Kageki but i thought it was worth mentioning for a few reasons.

1 it mentions an isolated case of an individual being burned alive
2 it talks about burning bodies outside in the summer months when the trains were coming so often they outstripped the capacity of the crematoria.
3 it's interesting how the historian Pressac simply won't accept anything that tauber didnt see first hand (for example the gassing of 200 SonderKommando) and how he corrects even the smallest errors unfailingly.
4 there is even a mention of 4 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz towards the end which Pressac dismisses as propaganda.


its not an easy read.