[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[SDC]

Kageki,

I think we have established that you feel the Holocaust has been exaggerated by the Jews in their pursuit and maintenance of the state of Israel. I'm interested in how exactly they have managed it?

Given that the generally accepted number for those Jews that perished is around six million where did the discrepancy and the conspiracy begin?

Did the liberating troops make up the numbers and the conditions that they found?
Were there reams of documents forged, and witnesses briefed, in post war Europe to dupe the world into what had happened?
Did the perpetrators lie about what had occured and make it a much more horrific event than the reality?
Or as time passed have the worlds historians and chroniclers got together to broadly ramp up the numbers?
or is it a modern political bias driven by the ever present but never to be seen "they"?

because -and here is the tricky bit for you- if any one of them have happened in isolation from another it sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Do you really think the worlds historians are going to twiddle their thumbs (and lets be clear I've made this a lot easier for you by lumping them all into one voice with one opinion) whilst modern politicians twist the truth into something that you claim is so monstously wrong? or the liberating troops going to stay quiet as the Holocaust survivors give evidence of gas chambers that the troops didn't find? or, and most ridiculously of all, the Nazis when faced with the noose decide the best way of clearing their souls is to inflate the death toll six fold? or even, my favourite, that the "they" have hijacked the lot and tortured, silenced and bribed every other group.

To be clear this is not an argument from incredulity - its an impossibility. How can so many disparate and even contrary groups be so quiet throughout the biggest lie in history that one of them is trying to pull off? answer - they can't.

Which then forces your hand somewhat into the biggie - yes (drum roll) that all of them are in on it.

Troops and nurses from the Allied forces, thousands survivors and escapees from dozens of countries from dozens of camps, Nazis, historians, and thousands upon thousands of others are all bound by the big conspiracy.


Either all these people lied then, have lied for sixty years and lie to this day or none of them did.

Pushkin, I think from Kageki's posts (I won't quote chapter/ verse, he's been all over the map) that he has also suggested that, if the Holocaust was real, it may have been organized/ arranged by Zionist Jews themselves; so a kind of "MIHOP," not just "Take advantage/ LIHOP," to borrow terms from 9/11 conspiracies.

I may be wrong in this, because as I said his claims are very mixed and muddled and show signs of 1/ no research behind them, and 2/ being very confused. But just so you are aware...

By the way, Aleksandr Sergeevich, I thought "Evgenii Onegin" was the bee's knees. Keep up the good work!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.

No.

You provide the exact article you are talking about. Make a claim and back it up for once in your life.

 

[Pak43]

Professor Christopher Browning being cross-examined by David Irving..

Irving: "Is it not right, Professor, that our statistical database for arriving at any kind of conclusions for the numbers of people, killed in the holocaust by whatever means, we are really floundering in the dark are we not?"

Browning: "We have accurate lists of the deportation trains from Germany, in many cases the entire roster name by name. In terms again of France, the Netherlands, the countries from which there were deportations from Western Europe, we can do a very close approximation by trains, the number of people per train. In the area of Poland there were at least statistics in terms of ghetto populations and these ghettoes were liquidated completely, so we can to a fairly good rough figure of Polish Jews. We also have a fairly reliable prewar census and postwar calculations so one can do the subtraction"

Judge Gray then asks Browning for an estimate of the number of people gassed at the smaller death camps. Browning told him that postwar trials in the 1960's german prosecutors concluded that approximately 2 million Jews had been killed at Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno.

Irving belittles these estimates, suggesting they are cavalierly made...

Browning then says:
"We have a very accurate reduction of the Lodz population, which trains went to Chelmno, when, and we can come very accurately to the number of people deported from Lodz to Chelmno, then one is on a little bit less secure grounds for the various other surrounding areas where we do not have a day-to-day deduction or a train b train calculation, but we do have statistics of what the populations were there before the whole operation began...We know how many Dutch transports went to Sobibor. We know which regions were cleared that were directed to Sobibor. We had the figures of the Jewish populations in these ghettoes before the liquidation and the number of workers that were shifted to some of the work camps"

Judge Gray and thanks him "That is very helpful"

On a personal level:
Why do I feel the need for a good drink when I end up describing this horror in such dry methodical terms?

 

[Pushkin]

SDC

Pushkin, I think from Kageki's posts (I won't quote chapter/ verse, he's been all over the map) that he has also suggested that, if the Holocaust was real, it may have been organized/ arranged by Zionist Jews themselves; so a kind of "MIHOP," not just "Take advantage/ LIHOP," to borrow terms from 9/11 conspiracies.

Ah, okay then I happily add the pre-War Zionists into the scheme. But how did they know the Nazis were even going to start some kind of extermination/transportation scheme that they could ambush? But if its MIHOP then the Zionists and the Nazi's were in cahoots......yep that's it. The Germans wanted lebensraum and the Jews wanted Israel so they plotted the whole Holocaust WWII thing to get that.....

I'm getting in a muddle here .... Kageki can you get me straightened out again? Thanks in advance.

SDC - thanks for the big up but Pushkin was the name of my dad's dog!

 

[SDC]

A little more on the trucks... There was a dispute among the German camp experts over whether to use cyanide or carbon monoxide. Cyanide won eventually, of course, but again: trial and error. It took a lot of thought and effort, on the part of the SS and other involved Nazi "experts," to work things out. The scale and industrial/ mass "production" character of the Holocaust was unprecedented. Previous large-scale genocides -- the case of the Armenians in Turkey, 1916-18, is often cited, and Hitler referred to it -- was much more "low-tech." Even the Sovs; when they decided to kill wholesale (see: Katyn, the Polish prisoners), they relied on shooting.

 

[HawksFan]

One thing about the Germans is that they are a meticulous people. Very detailed records were kept of just about everything that happened in the Reich especially shipping and recieving. There were records of how many were sent from a particular place and how many arrived at a particular place. Even the camps themselves kept detailed records of how many were gassed daily and how many were sent to such-and-such factory for work, etc. Many camps were in full operation until a matter of hours before liberation.

It sort of came back to bite them at the Nueremburg trials.

 

[kageki]

The only thing YOUR post proves is that you have just DECIDES that they died from typhus.

Yes and you decided those corpses were a result of systematic execution.

 

[kageki]

SDC

Ah, okay then I happily add the pre-War Zionists into the scheme. But how did they know the Nazis were even going to start some kind of extermination/transportation scheme that they could ambush? But if its MIHOP then the Zionists and the Nazi's were in cahoots......yep that's it. The Germans wanted lebensraum and the Jews wanted Israel so they plotted the whole Holocaust WWII thing to get that.....

I'm getting in a muddle here .... Kageki can you get me straightened out again? Thanks in advance.

SDC - thanks for the big up but Pushkin was the name of my dad's dog!

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

 

[kageki]

That article says that the book was self-published by one Jewish man in New Jersey. You may as well say that there's an 'English plan' to claim that the world is controlled by shape-shifting lizards, because David Icke says so.

You may as well say that one German man wrote a self-published and claim that there's a "German plan". Oh wait..

 

[MaGZ]

Even granting for the sake of debate that all these awful things about McVeigh are true, your argument is nothing more than an ad hominem abusive logical fallacy. "Don't believe this guy--he's [insert irrelevant negative characteristics]."

I would think the Jews could find a better front man than Ken McVey.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours.

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

 

[MaGZ]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters in this thread have actually been to one of the camps? Not as a prisioner, obviously, but visited one?

I have (Dachau) and I can tell you it is a sobering and emotional experience. Just the feeling you get walking through the gate with the "Arbeit macht Frei" slogan overhead was almost overwhelming. Almost all conversation stopped at that point as everyone looked around and especially back towards the gate and the fences. You could acutally feel (well, I did) the suffering and misery and death. The crematorium out behind the camp was particularly chilling. I was only 14 at the time I visited.

And Dachau was one of the "nicer" camps. I can't even imagine what visiting a place like Auchwitz or Bergen-Belsen or one of the other notorious eastern camps must be like.

Anyone who doubts that the Holocaust happened needs to visit one of these places. Then tell me it never happened.

The reason they have tours of "Holocaust" camps is to generate the type of emotions you experience: emotion over reason. The same goes for all the "Holocaust" museums that are springing up in this country like mushrooms.

The Holocaust never happened.

 

[MaGZ]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours. When questioned about it's authenticity Robert Jan indicated that this document had been available for over 50 years. The original was available and not only that but there is a typed copy in another archive, given that there are two different copies in 2 different archives it was highly improbable they are forgeries.

This crema was DESIGNED to cope with 1440 bodies per day. Not only that but it listed a lower incineration rate than that which was attested to under oath by German eyewitnesses, it therefore represents a LOW estimate of the capacity of the ovens...

The 1942 patent submitted by Topf, (the company that built the crematoria) for the specially designed ovens in Auschwitz. These ovens were designed to simultaneously consume multiple bodies with the limited expenditure of fuel. The design calls for the simultaneous introduction of both emaciated and unemaciated corpses in order to guarantee continual high temperatures through the emission of human fat. If only emaciated corpses were incinerated it was necessary to continously add fuel.

And here's the kicker. Prisoner Henryk Tauber would not have had access to Topf's patent application and yet the process this eyewitness describes is EXACTLY the same as the desin stipulated. It's called convergance of evidence... Based on Robert Jan's calculations it was perfectly feasible for the design of the rest of the Crematoria to keep supplying the ovens with enough bodies to keep the fires burning correctly.

The ovens were designed to burn bodies on an indutrial scale.

I ask you what the most likely explanation for designing them that way if the camps were merely going to be dealing with unexpected deaths from disease, over-work and starvation...



I'm afraid the source for this is a contemporary SS report. It's called primary material and I'm afraid in historical research terms it doesn't get any more convincing than that. You want to debunk it then do your research find a copy and prove it's a fake...

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

 

[chillzero]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

You both think that the rate of killing was one person after another? Don't you realise they were killed in large batches?

 

[Tolls]

You may as well say that one German man wrote a self-published and claim that there's a "German plan". Oh wait..

Well, can you show us when Kaufman became President of the US and proceeded to act on his plan?

Oh...wait...

 

[Tbone]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

Why do you both think that:

a) the Nazi's cared whether or not a body was completely cremated before starting the next?

b) the bodies were burned one at a time?


They weren't holding a funeral for these people. You might do good to remember that.

 

[Matilda]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

No.
Auschwitz had industrial ovens reaching very high tempreatures and running continuously. They were also murdering children, which would also affect the time. Also, they were burning more than one corpse at a time. They also cremated people in large pits because the ovens were not always enough.

So, no, it doesn't mean Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-07.html

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.

But the well-constructed crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old pits in the wood.

Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities of boiling human fat over the bodies.

More here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

 

[westprog]

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

Assuming that the most famous death camp the world has ever known followed the same cremation practices as your friendly local crematorium, yes. Otherwise it simply means that they had the capacity to cremate about two hundred bodies at a time.

As to whether an industrial-size oven burning huge numbers of bodies could possibly work more quickly than a small installation designed to respectfully process the remains of a loved one - perhaps a more useful example would be the destruction of cattle during the Mad Cow purge in the UK.

 

[Belz...]

Yes and you decided those corpses were a result of systematic execution.

False. History records the Holocaust. YOU deny it happened. That places the onus on YOU to prove it.

So far, all you've been doing is saying that it COULD be something else, but bare possibilities are not evidence.

 

[Belz...]

The reason they have tours of "Holocaust" camps is to generate the type of emotions you experience: emotion over reason. The same goes for all the "Holocaust" museums that are springing up in this country like mushrooms.

The Holocaust never happened.

Still waiting for that evidence...