juryjone
Refusing to be confused by facts
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2002
- Messages
- 879
OK, now that I’ve finally topped 100 posts, I suppose it’s time I started a serious topic. It’s one I’ve had floating around in my head for months now – in fact, since I started lurking here about a year and a half ago – but I’m finally taking the time to bring all the disparate thoughts together. I’m afraid I’m going to have to put this serious topic in Banter, since it touches on things from so many other forums. I can only hope this won't be one of those "0 replies" threads.
The question I have in regard to paranormal activities, religion, philosophy etc. is: What good are micro results in a macro world?
THE PARANORMAL
Let’s touch on the paranormal first. How about starting with the PEAR experiments that were debated ad nauseam here months ago? They found that, once you whip all the numbers together, there could be a slighter greater result than chance that a random number generator could be influenced in a general direction (i.e., more ones than zeros generated or vice versa). Even if the results could be replicated repeatedly, of what significance is this? Is this of any practical use? “Oh my god, they’ve released a psychic who can make our RNGs slightly less random! Run for the hills!” Yet it seems that this is the best study that there is to offer.
We’ve all seen dowsers ripped apart in these forums. What can one say when a dowser for gold is thrown off the scent of a hunk of gold in this room by the gold leaf on a book in the next room? Gold teeth/caps/fillings must really throw them off. So, once again, no practical value since they can’t produce the talent at will.
JE, SB and all other people who “speak to the dead” – as many others have stated, where is the practical knowledge? Believers are constantly telling about the wonderful “hits” that have been gotten – yet every one of those hits is something that already happened. “You went to Niagra Falls and picked up a feather that was significant to you.” Hey, tell me something I don’t know. Tell me about what’s going to happen to me in the same detail that you’ve “told” me about my past life. Tell me if I’m going to lose my job, and if I’ll be able to find a new one quickly. Tell me if my wife is thinking of divorce. Tell me if my kid’s taking drugs – if so, what kind and where can I find his stash? Throw me a bone here – give me something I can use, not “He still loves you.” I know a platitude when I hear one. (By the way, the same applies to near-death experiences. Why don’t these people ever come back with any practical news from the beyond? If there is actually an afterlife, why doesn’t everyone who is near death experience something? We get nothing of value in our lives from NDEs, either.)
What have aliens done for us lately? Sure, they built the pyramids for us (using methods that look exactly like they were done by slave human labor), but I gotta say those crop circles mean nothing to me. Amazing how these “signals” have been sent out for years and we haven’t had a single verifiable alien landing. If the signals are for the future, why the hell are they carving them into semi-annual crops? Need a beacon to guide you home from your cross-continental trip? Light a candle! I’d also be more likely to believe in otherwordly intelligent life if, when they came to study our society, they picked out people who actually participate in our society, rather than farmers who live miles from their nearest neighbor.
ALTERNTIVE MEDICINES
There is one way to separate alternative medicines from the real thing – will it work on someone who doesn’t believe in it? If I get a measles vaccine, then run into someone with measles three months later, it’s not going to matter whether I believe in vaccines or not – I will not get measles. Can the same be said for acupuncture, psychic surgery, homeopathy, applied kinesiology, magnets, Q-Ray bracelets, etc., etc., etc.? Nope. There is no practical value to these things – they don’t even relieve symptoms unless you believe the symptoms will be relieved – and the placebo effect is well documented.
If you’re a “bad” chiropractor, then you will say spinal adjustment will cure all sorts of disease, up to and including cancer. If you’re a “good” chiropractor, then you say that spinal adjustment might help cure back pain or pinched nerves. But if chiropractic were a cure, then you wouldn’t have to go back later this week, or next week. You’d go back the next time you injured yourself. There is no more practical value to a chiropractor than a massage therapist, and the therapist is cheaper.
RELIGION
“God works in mysterious ways.” Well, that kills any predictive value for religion. If there was a predictive value to religion, then the studies on the power of prayer would show conclusively that prayer heals people. Yet the studies, in general, are inconclusive. Only some of the people are cured, and only in cases where the condition is known to sometimes abate in spontaneous remission. Prayer has never been known to cure ALS or Tay-Sachs disease – there’s not a single instance of it. Yet those who believe in the power of prayer are like those who believe a cold reader – they rejoice over the one ”hit” while ignoring the many, many misses. No, I take that back – they don’t ignore them, they attribute them to their “mysterious God”. Still, no practical value.
PHILOSOPHY
There's a lot of talk about free will and materialism but what difference does it make? It seems to me like I'm making decisions all the time. Even not making a decision is making a decision. If I have no free will and yet it seems to me like I'm making decisions, what possible difference is there in my world? If my consciousness exists outside my brain and yet changes to my brain affect my consciousness, then how is that different than if the consciousness resides in the brain? Again, these are things which have no practical value. I cannot act on a deterministic, non-materialist outlook.
CONCLUSION
Many believers tie the unpredictability or miniscule results to quantum mechanics, which anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge will realize has nothing to do with how things work in our physical world. I can totally ignore quantum mechanics and it will make no difference in how I live my life and in how the believer lives his life. Yet that’s the only way they can justify their micro results in a macro world.
The question I have in regard to paranormal activities, religion, philosophy etc. is: What good are micro results in a macro world?
THE PARANORMAL
Let’s touch on the paranormal first. How about starting with the PEAR experiments that were debated ad nauseam here months ago? They found that, once you whip all the numbers together, there could be a slighter greater result than chance that a random number generator could be influenced in a general direction (i.e., more ones than zeros generated or vice versa). Even if the results could be replicated repeatedly, of what significance is this? Is this of any practical use? “Oh my god, they’ve released a psychic who can make our RNGs slightly less random! Run for the hills!” Yet it seems that this is the best study that there is to offer.
We’ve all seen dowsers ripped apart in these forums. What can one say when a dowser for gold is thrown off the scent of a hunk of gold in this room by the gold leaf on a book in the next room? Gold teeth/caps/fillings must really throw them off. So, once again, no practical value since they can’t produce the talent at will.
JE, SB and all other people who “speak to the dead” – as many others have stated, where is the practical knowledge? Believers are constantly telling about the wonderful “hits” that have been gotten – yet every one of those hits is something that already happened. “You went to Niagra Falls and picked up a feather that was significant to you.” Hey, tell me something I don’t know. Tell me about what’s going to happen to me in the same detail that you’ve “told” me about my past life. Tell me if I’m going to lose my job, and if I’ll be able to find a new one quickly. Tell me if my wife is thinking of divorce. Tell me if my kid’s taking drugs – if so, what kind and where can I find his stash? Throw me a bone here – give me something I can use, not “He still loves you.” I know a platitude when I hear one. (By the way, the same applies to near-death experiences. Why don’t these people ever come back with any practical news from the beyond? If there is actually an afterlife, why doesn’t everyone who is near death experience something? We get nothing of value in our lives from NDEs, either.)
What have aliens done for us lately? Sure, they built the pyramids for us (using methods that look exactly like they were done by slave human labor), but I gotta say those crop circles mean nothing to me. Amazing how these “signals” have been sent out for years and we haven’t had a single verifiable alien landing. If the signals are for the future, why the hell are they carving them into semi-annual crops? Need a beacon to guide you home from your cross-continental trip? Light a candle! I’d also be more likely to believe in otherwordly intelligent life if, when they came to study our society, they picked out people who actually participate in our society, rather than farmers who live miles from their nearest neighbor.
ALTERNTIVE MEDICINES
There is one way to separate alternative medicines from the real thing – will it work on someone who doesn’t believe in it? If I get a measles vaccine, then run into someone with measles three months later, it’s not going to matter whether I believe in vaccines or not – I will not get measles. Can the same be said for acupuncture, psychic surgery, homeopathy, applied kinesiology, magnets, Q-Ray bracelets, etc., etc., etc.? Nope. There is no practical value to these things – they don’t even relieve symptoms unless you believe the symptoms will be relieved – and the placebo effect is well documented.
If you’re a “bad” chiropractor, then you will say spinal adjustment will cure all sorts of disease, up to and including cancer. If you’re a “good” chiropractor, then you say that spinal adjustment might help cure back pain or pinched nerves. But if chiropractic were a cure, then you wouldn’t have to go back later this week, or next week. You’d go back the next time you injured yourself. There is no more practical value to a chiropractor than a massage therapist, and the therapist is cheaper.
RELIGION
“God works in mysterious ways.” Well, that kills any predictive value for religion. If there was a predictive value to religion, then the studies on the power of prayer would show conclusively that prayer heals people. Yet the studies, in general, are inconclusive. Only some of the people are cured, and only in cases where the condition is known to sometimes abate in spontaneous remission. Prayer has never been known to cure ALS or Tay-Sachs disease – there’s not a single instance of it. Yet those who believe in the power of prayer are like those who believe a cold reader – they rejoice over the one ”hit” while ignoring the many, many misses. No, I take that back – they don’t ignore them, they attribute them to their “mysterious God”. Still, no practical value.
PHILOSOPHY
There's a lot of talk about free will and materialism but what difference does it make? It seems to me like I'm making decisions all the time. Even not making a decision is making a decision. If I have no free will and yet it seems to me like I'm making decisions, what possible difference is there in my world? If my consciousness exists outside my brain and yet changes to my brain affect my consciousness, then how is that different than if the consciousness resides in the brain? Again, these are things which have no practical value. I cannot act on a deterministic, non-materialist outlook.
CONCLUSION
Many believers tie the unpredictability or miniscule results to quantum mechanics, which anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge will realize has nothing to do with how things work in our physical world. I can totally ignore quantum mechanics and it will make no difference in how I live my life and in how the believer lives his life. Yet that’s the only way they can justify their micro results in a macro world.
