A serious issue: what to tell the kids...

[Hexxenhammer]

My family wasn't especially religious, but we went to church and sunday school and stuff. I was also very interested in science. It hit me at a very early age that what they were teaching me in sunday school was fishy because it didn't jibe with what I was reading on my own about science. This started to keep me up at night. I would wake my mom up asking her how long forever was, and why they didn't talk about the big bang in church and on and on...I was about 8, my mom was kinda baffled at her weird child.

I want to avoid this with my new daughter. My wife is religious in a do-good-deeds, golden-rule kinda way and wants to take her to a church that follows that philosophy (but my wife is Catholic and trying to find a way to leave the Catholic church without giving her parents and grandparents heart attacks). So I'm going to make it a point that after she gets home from Sunday school, she gets a "that's a story" lesson from me and maybe a science lesson or another mythology story.

 

[roger]

Hexxanhammer,

What turned the corner with me was my reading about Native American religions. I have a tiny bit of NA ancestry, and wanted to learn about it. So when I learned that they weren't Christian, and in fact had very divergent beliefs, I asked myself which I should believe. It quickly became apparent to me that both were myths.

My point is that by showing your daughter alternative myths, she'll be much more likely to realize that what she is being taught in sunday school is no more than a myth, too. (which is what it sounds like you are planning on doing)

 

[jimlintott]

I don't doubt anything that you're saying, but the scary part is that if you replace the word ATHEIST with CHRISTIAN in your above post, it sounds just like the religious diatribe I'm trying to avoid. Many Christians don't consider themselves religious..they're just following the truth.

Dogma is dogma, no matter where it comes from.

Yes, I agree with you. I think this is one of the things that Atheists have personal battles over. We don't like to tell other people what to believe. We are more live and let live. I was actually somewhat uncomfortable with some of the things I said (prompting my pius atheist remark).

When it comes to our children I don't think we should be wishy washy. It probably will make you feel uncomfortable and hypocritical at times but it's your kids. They deserve the best. Think of the children.

I fought the same problem when my kids were very young. I still sometimes fight it but I made a decision to go this route and I stuck to it. I believe that both my children and I are better off for it.

 

[Hexxenhammer]

Hexxanhammer,

What turned the corner with me was my reading about Native American religions. I have a tiny bit of NA ancestry, and wanted to learn about it. So when I learned that they weren't Christian, and in fact had very divergent beliefs, I asked myself which I should believe. It quickly became apparent to me that both were myths.

My point is that by showing your daughter alternative myths, she'll be much more likely to realize that what she is being taught in sunday school is no more than a myth, too. (which is what it sounds like you are planning on doing)

Exactly. Church does David v/s Goliath, I do Perseus and the Medusa...etc...etc...

 

[A_Feeble_Mind]

The Santa Claus thing was a challenge. I didn't want to rob the kids of the fun of the Santa tradition, so I referred to it as a "legend" that some people believe. I fully intend to come clean on the whole Santa/Easter bunny thing when I feel the time is right.

Is this approach dishonest? Maybe. But I think it illustrates the valuable life skill of flexibility.

Actually, my question was not what you were going to tell your child in the short term about Santa. Rather, I was attempting to make a comparision between God and Santa (and Invisible Pink Unicorns.) The point of my post was to ask the question "Will you encourage your child to remain open to any possibility, no matter how remote, just because there is 'no proof' that it doesn't exist?" For instance, is it really neccessary to consider further speculation on the existance of Santa? Do we really need to consider that there might be some old, fat man in a red suit who gives out presents, even though there is no proof for him?

 

[Jeff Wagg]

Actually, my question was not what you were going to tell your child in the short term about Santa. Rather, I was attempting to make a comparision between God and Santa (and Invisible Pink Unicorns.) The point of my post was to ask the question "Will you encourage your child to remain open to any possibility, no matter how remote, just because there is 'no proof' that it doesn't exist?" For instance, is it really neccessary to consider further speculation on the existance of Santa? Do we really need to consider that there might be some old, fat man in a red suit who gives out presents, even though there is no proof for him?

The short answer is "yes," but I need to temper that with practicality. Santa et al are legendary beings, but they don't affect the way we live to any great concern. Belief in God, in an extrernal morality, matters a very great deal.

So when the kids are older, if they ask if there really is a Santa, I'll say no. Santa is an easily defined thing to refute. If they ask about God, I'll say "I don't think there is a god." God is an amorphous entity whose definition in many cases removes the opportunity for evidence. If I say there's no god, then I'm saying a lot more than I mean.

I'll have to think about this more.

 

[A_Feeble_Mind]

The short answer is "yes," but I need to temper that with practicality. Santa et al are legendary beings, but they don't affect the way we live to any great concern. Belief in God, in an extrernal morality, matters a very great deal.

So when the kids are older, if they ask if there really is a Santa, I'll say no. Santa is an easily defined thing to refute. If they ask about God, I'll say "I don't think there is a god." God is an amorphous entity whose definition in many cases removes the opportunity for evidence. If I say there's no god, then I'm saying a lot more than I mean.

I'll have to think about this more.

Couldn't Santa affect our behavior? He does have the power to know if you've been naughty or nice and will reward or punish our behavior accordingly.

I know it seems silly to carry on about Santa, and I am not doing so in an attempt to be irritating. Instead, I am questioning whether or not Santa is really any different than the typical Judeo-Christian God.

And, is there really any proof for ANY type of god? Unless you take a bizarre view and claim that god is a non-sentient object (like the earth, which obviously exists), why should your discussions with your child need to allow for some remote possibility for which NO evidence even hints at?

 

[uruk]

My mother raised me a catholic. I was even was an alterboy ( no shenanigans were committed upon my person, as far as I know)

But ironically, my mother also raised us to be critical thinkers. How she handled the contradictions I'll never know. She never lied to us about Santa Clause or the easter bunny. When I had my disllusionment with religion and left the church, she made no fuss or effort to reconvert me. My mother is very well versed in
theology and catholic history and we have many a lively debate concerning catholisim and religion in general.

I think your children will do just fine if you teach them to use thier
head. Next time your child askes you about god, santa claus, or the two party political system, ask them what they think about it first and go from there.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

And, is there really any proof for ANY type of god? Unless you take a bizarre view and claim that god is a non-sentient object (like the earth, which obviously exists), why should your discussions with your child need to allow for some remote possibility for which NO evidence even hints at?

Well, the answer is that it's because MOST people believe there is a God. This is nothing to sneeze at...my kids have to live in a society with these people, and he needs to seriously consider whether or not there's a God. If he decides there isn't, he has to understand the ramifications of that decision. These factors do not apply to Santa, although I do agree that Santa is very much like God-lite.

The value of being right may not be equal to the value of getting along with your neighbors.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

My mother raised me a catholic. I was even was an alterboy ( no shenanigans were committed upon my person, as far as I know)

But ironically, my mother also raised us to be critical thinkers. How she handled the contradictions I'll never know. She never lied to us about Santa Clause or the easter bunny. When I had my disllusionment with religion and left the church, she made no fuss or effort to reconvert me. My mother is very well versed in
theology and catholic history and we have many a lively debate concerning catholisim and religion in general.

I think your children will do just fine if you teach them to use thier
head. Next time your child askes you about god, santa claus, or the two party political system, ask them what they think about it first and go from there.

Hai, Uruk (chuckle).

Among religions, I find Catholics to be decent critical thinkers within their own limited context. They even admit that homosexuality is from God (Catholic Catechism paragraph 2358[http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/catechism.html]). Of course, not all of their followers practice these skills...kudos to your mother.

Your suggestion to ask them what they think is excellent. Simple, effective, and not likely to come to my mind when the time is right, but I'll endeavor to change that. Thanks.