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Michael Moore expresses Joy at GM Demise!

Beerina said:
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As for Moore, keep in mind he lives in a world where businessmen and engineers and scientists labor hard so they can earn no more money than an uneducated buffoon on the assembly line, who would be lucky to not starve to death, left to his own devices.
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There is another business philosophy, you know. It's the philosophy that paying workers decent wages produces CUSTOMERS!
 
skeptigirl said:
There is another business philosophy, you know. It's the philosophy that paying workers decent wages produces CUSTOMERS!
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Toyota's workers make a little more than half what GM's made. I believe the figure was over $50 an hour. If you can call that wage 'indecent' I'd like you to have a talk with reality.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise. However, I live in a world where I've been at the same job for six years and still make under $10 an hour.

EDIT: It turns out there is debate on what the workers actually earn.
The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.
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say Ryan Avent. Still, $28 an hour plus benefits. My heart bleeds for these people. (/sarcasm) I do actually feel for them and their families though now that a lot of them are going to likely be out of a job.
 
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Skeptic said:
Moore, it is quite obvious, much rather have all his home town live on welfare -- THAT is just fine -- than work for a living in one of those eeeeeeeeeevil big corporations.

Of course Flint is just "his" hometown by adoption, a fact he tried to hide, but then again, lying is a second nature to him.
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I'm not a Michael Moore fan, but - seriously. The guy who made "Roger and Me" doesn't want anyone in Flint to work for a big corporation? You've never actually watched any of his movies, have you?
 
Redtail said:
One could but America tends to be more densely packed than Australia (By a lot IIRC) thus it's much more likely that bids will get undercut solely due to the gas price increase. My dad was a brick mason and would have to tow heavy equipment (backhoe, lift, etc...) to job sites.
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Well, I've never been in the US and only once in Australia, and then almost only in the Broome area, which is very sparsely populated. However, we have a similar problem here in Sweden, where the population is quite spread out in the North. Prices have increased from about 8 SEK (1.25 US dollars, or so) per litre perhaps ten years ago to 12-13 SEK (2-2.10 US dollars, I'm guessing) per litre now, so we've sort of had this problem already.

As I don't have a driver's license myself, I'm quite detached from these problems, but I'm guessing that if all companies that compete for a certain job have to raise their prices with a certain amount due to petrol price increases, it would sort of even out. Of course, this assumes that the companies are equidistant to the place of work, or the actual amount of used petrol is the same through other circumstances.

I know my dad's company -- it's really him, a friend of him, and that friend's youngest son -- still have a lot of work despite these fuel price increases, simply by being very good at what they are doing, and having a reputation in the area for being quick, efficient, and nice to talk to.

Redtail said:
In my case I'm pulling a travel trailer because my wife and I are theatre folk and we travel to where the work is. Because of our cats it's hard to find places to rent for 4-5-6 months so we take our house with us so to speak. Would it cut us totally out of work? No. but it would greatly reduce our choices.
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Well, I guess that is a totally different kind of situation then, which I didn't think of. Would it be totally impossible to raise ticket prices with a small percentage if the fuel costs increased a lot? I am assuming (hoping!) that you actually get people to come and watch you; would as many come if the price was slightly higher?

Redtail said:
When I mentioned rual areas I was thinking more of the walnut, almond, cattle famers in the area of California I'm in right now. Of course there's wheat, corn, rice, etc. in other areas. What would be the increase in food prices based a $2 gas increase? (For the record that last bit is an honest question. I don't know what factors would go into an equation to figure that out.)
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Hmmm... I am guessing -- from my own experience up here where we need to import everything because our ancestors chose to place their country in an idiotic location where nothing grows -- that the stores would at least quote that as a reason to raise prices. Whether or not it actually has any effect? I have no idea. Here they'd happily raise the price of satsumas or bananas or whatever noticeably because of a thing like that, despite the fact (1) that the enormous quantities they import must serve to make the price increase per fruit negligible.

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(1) Well, it's an opinion at least, and I hope it is a fact as well.
 
Redtail said:
Ah! Ok that would be fine. I only brought up the original post because when someone brings up ideas like Moore did I rarely see the vehicles as tools issue addressed.
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Just to note: I believe the same thing is true in Sweden. I believe people who use their vehicles as tools can get a tax reduction similar to the cost of occupation-related fuel purchases. Also: diesel is much cheaper here than normal petrol.

The problem we're having is more along the lines of people in less urban area wanting to have the same sorts of benefits when they just drive their cars to work without actually using them in their work. Since privatisation has pretty much screwed up the countryside here, I think it's understandable.

Hittman said:
He's a little to the left of Mao.
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He seems quite centrist to me...
 
tyr_13 said:
I like 'car less' cities... <snip/>

But, it isn't something that everywhere can just do. It certainly isn't going to happen in rural areas of this country.
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You have cities in rural areas? :p
 
Redtail said:
Ok, I'm pretty sure I couldn't get my trailer on the train, and I'm equally sure Hybrids and electrics can't tow it... So... What? I, and the hundreds of thousands if not millions who need heavy, powerful, vehicles, just scrap our careers and start over in new jobs? Do we go on welfare until these companies start making affordable hybrids, electrics that can tow 7,000+ lbs? Do I get to trade my Silverado in straight up? Not to mention that many people who need to tow don't live near major cities.
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It could be balanced by increasing the tax deduction for those using them for work... but I agree just artificially jacking up the price is hardly an elegant solution.
 
six7s said:
You have cities in rural areas? :p
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You know what? I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose we do.

I grew up in West Virginia. Without getting too nit picky about the definitions of "rural" and "city" (especially "city") I think it could be argued that transitions can occur almost instantly from one to the other in a number of places there.

My wife (the stunningly beautiful Mrs. quadraginta) certainly thought so the first time I took her there to visit.

Other states can fill the same particulars with even more stark contrast.
 
tyr_13 said:
Toyota's workers make a little more than half what GM's made. I believe the figure was over $50 an hour. If you can call that wage 'indecent' I'd like you to have a talk with reality.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise. However, I live in a world where I've been at the same job for six years and still make under $10 an hour.

EDIT: It turns out there is debate on what the workers actually earn. say Ryan Avent. Still, $28 an hour plus benefits. My heart bleeds for these people. (/sarcasm) I do actually feel for them and their families though now that a lot of them are going to likely be out of a job.
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The numbers you quoted for the Toyota employees (approx $25 per hour plus benefits) do'nt seem to be too far from the $28 plus benefits that a G.M. worker earns- of course , if the U.A.W. did not exist, Toyota would be paying its' "uneducated bufoons" something like the $10 you earn per hour. (do you feel lucky that you are not starving to death- left to your own devices?) Since G.M. has been doing business for nearly a century, it is not surprising that it has many, many more pensioners than Toyota- which has only been doing business in the U.S. for twenty years or so.
 
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