Logical? Deism.

[Franko]

It's just like I told you yesterday Tricky, the "matter" is not real in the same sense that You or I are real.

 

[Tricky]

It's just like I told you yesterday Tricky, the "matter" is not real in the same sense that You or I are real.

Then in what way is it "real"? Is it, in fact, imaginary, or as Wraith says, "a dream"? How does one gather evidence of an "unreal" thing?

If it is not real in the sense that everything else is real, then it is, by definition, metaphysical. This means that if you are at all influenced by your graviton, then you do not obey the laws of physics, since it is not a part of physics.

 

[Franko]

Didn't we already have this very conversation just yesterday?

 

[CWL]

*Snip*

See, it sounds like you are conceding.

Again, as to what?

So do you still believe you have “free will” CWL, or do you believe that your actions are preordained by the deterministic laws of physics?

Not convinced. I need evidence to believe someone else is pulling the strings. As far as I can tell I make my own choices. That makes this the default position for me.

If you could have then why didn’t you?

I was a good boy training this morning and I felt I deserved some fries. Or maybe it was TLOP that felt I did. I dunno. You have made me so confused, Wise One.

Are you seriously claiming that you could have abstained from being born to the parents you were born with?

Could you have abstained from being born in Europe?

Cannot choose the impossible. False dilemma. Not relevant.

Yeah, and I bet you have a reason (internally logical) for doing so.

And this proves what?

So long as you are conscious you are constantly receiving (new) information from the LG (TLOP to you). This information goes into your database (your memory). Over time it can effect alterations to your algorithm itself (the way your algorithm functions).

Great stuff (not kidding). You should consider writing sci-fi novels.

Once upon a time you couldn’t speak English. You acquired more and more information, your algorithm was altered, now you speak English. Your algorithm has been enhanced. You possess an ability that you did not possess before. You possess this ability because over time you made the English language logical in your own mind. You comprehend it.

I have learned English, yes that's correct. You are very perceptive.

If indeterminism were True that is EXACTLY what you would expect – Things would happen for no logical reason.

"Indeterminism"? How about probabilism as the alternative to determinism. In a probabilistic Universe (and this is how most scientist look upon the universe today) things would not happen for "no logical reason". On the contrary.

Give me an example of a “choice” that is NOT based on (some sort of) reason???

Pick a number and you might win a nice basket of fruit. Number 74 you say? Or perhaps number 49? Any particular reason you chose that number?

You are the one claiming that such “choices” exist. I see no evidence for this. I lack-o-belief in what you believe.

Ok. Explain the choosing-a-number thingy above.

Clearly you haven’t thought about this much. Are you claiming that your mother and father are not really your mother and father, and that in fact they are only probably your mother and father?

False dilemma. Not relevant.

You really are credulous CWL. This person I talked to said that they “Perceived” and “Observed” John Edwards talking to dead people. I guess that means you believe that there is empirical evidence that John Edwards can talk to dead people?

No. Those perceptions and observations are easily explained by some other, more llikely and parsimonious theory.

That’s my point. What makes you believe that ANY options are EVER available to YOU? You certainly don’t have ANY EVIDENCE that you ever have any options. All of the EVIDENCE says that You DON’T have any options.

What evidence? That I didn't get to choose my father? How is that relevant?

You really like generalizing don't you? What you are saying is something along the lines of:

If you had free will you would get choices
You did not get to choose your father
You do not have free will

Can you understand why that doesn't work? Oh... I forgot, your whole cosmology is based on the Fallacy of Composition. You appear to assume that any general conclusion may be drawn from an isolated observation.

You may not exist now. Maybe Yatzi is correct and your consciousness is just an illusion. TLOP is really controlling EVERYTHING – including you and your “choices”.

M'kay. Not much use to me to assume that, but thanks anyway.

Once again – You can’t and You don’t. So how does this support your magical notion of “free will” and “choosing” between “available options”? Face reality CWL you are nothing more than a Deterministic Algorithm. You have no evidence to the contrary. You just can’t accept the idea, and Truth is not a priority for you.

1) How are they False dilemmas (specifically)? They just prove you are wrong, so you want to ignore the evidence in favor of your mysticism.
2) How do you know what I am “well aware of”? Let me guess, you are using your magic mind reading powers again?

I don’t believe in “free will” CWL, no matter how desperately you and the other A-Theists want to believe that I do.

If you do not understand why your examples regarding "choice of parents, place of birth etc." are false dilemmas, I cannot help you. We have then left the realm of all that is logic, sense, reason etc.

Now, let's look at this little gem:

Franko: Since you obviously didn’t get to “choose” any of these “available options” what makes you assume that you get to “choose” ANY “available options”?

CWL: False dilemma. Your argument is irrelevant.

Franko: Is that what you call addressing a point A-Theist? It looks like you dodging and hiding.

"Point"? What "point"? The examples given by you were not "available options", i.e. false dilemma - not relevant to our discussion.

I could care less, anyone reading along will be able to decide for themselves.

For once I agree with you 100 %.

Yeah, but honesty has never been an A-Theist strong point, and that is especially True for You CWLiar.

Are there any specific "lies" of mine you are referring to? Would you mind providing links to any "lies" of mine?

What are you claiming?

Either TLOP controls YOU, or it does not (or possibly You control TLOP). Instead of trying to hide your belief (shame?) why don’t you just state what it is? Are you embarrassed by your own beliefs CWL?

I am asking you if you believe that TLOP controls YOU, or YOU control TLOP, or some other option? Please be as specific as possible.

There are more options. I do not agree with your description of the problem. You assume that TLOP is the will of a conscious entity. I do not. I look upon TLOP as the properties of the universe. They are nothing more than the walls defining a room. May I not freely roam inside a room, although I may be restricted by its walls?

You have claimed that you possess “free will”.

I have claimed to make choices between perceived and available options.

You have claimed that YOU do NOT obey TLOP.

This is a lie.

Do you still make these claims? How is asking you to prove the very claims YOU have made asking you to prove a negative?

You are asking me to prove that TLOP is not making all the choices for me. Again I ask, why is that the default?

You are the one who seems to think that I have to prove “free will” does not exist – that is proving a negative.

Well, I have pointed out that any sane human being would observe him or herself making choices between perceived and available options on a daily basis. How do you explain (or disprove) such observations? Is there a more likely and parsimonious explanation than that we are in fact consciously choosing between the options perceived by and available to us?

Yeah, and may I recommend you kiss my ass.

Precious.

Because I believe that the Universe is logical and objective.

...and inhabited by Goddesses and conscious force carrying particles made of time and creators who teach themselves to make copies of themselves and...

In a logical and objective reality things happen for logical and objective reasons – not magically – like you believe.

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey TLOP.

What scientific evidence do you have that says this is not true?

I never said that it wasn't true (I did say it wasn't a valid syllogism, which it isn't, but that's besides the point). I just disagree with your interpretation of the conclusion.

 

[CWL]

Yea, yea... I see the damn point.

Finger smacking statement is hereby retracted.

My only defense is that it doesn't hurt to be over-explicit in this debate - and the point is still valid. The fact that a computer isn't conscious - that it cannot perceive the options - makes all the difference.

Hey Tricky!

Changed my mind again. Perceiving an option does not necessarily imply consciously choosing between the options perceived. Do you concede or are we going to have to have that wrasslin' match?

 

[Franko]

Yesterday …

Franko:
Let’s say you are playing D&D and you “see” a Cart or a Chariot. That “cart” or “chariot” only exists because the DM (God) says that they exist. The “matter” that they are made from only exist so long as the DM exist to generate it.

Tricky:
Then what do things without souls use to carry their gravity?

Franko:
You mean like the Moon, or a Car?

They don't really exist in the way that You or I do. For all intent and purpose, they are merely projections.

This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.

Okay, so imagine the True-ist reality. A place where you wouldn’t see “red” or “blue”, but instead you would perceive oscillating photons. You wouldn’t see “matter”, you would only see Energy. That is the Omniverse. From a POV in the Omniverse you and I and every other living creature (including the Logical Goddess) would be perceived as particles – Gravitons. Now Gravitons communicate by exchanging memes (they transmit information back and fourth between each other). The memes that you receive from one graviton (the Top Graviton, or LG) are much more intense then other memes you receive. You give these memes a special significance and standing in your mind – you call the memes from this entity (TLOP from your POV) “the matter”.

 

[Tricky]

Didn't we already have this very conversation just yesterday?

If we did, you never answered my question. I'll make it easy for you.

Are gravitons real?

This is a coinflip question, Franko. Either they are real or they aren't. There's no such thing as "partially real".

 

[Franko]

Are gravitons real?

I'd say they were definitely real, but then again maybe I am just a figment of your imagination and you are making me say that???

 

[Tricky]

I'd say they were definitely real

Then the premise of your syllogism

"You are made of atoms"

is incorrect. According to LD, you are made of atoms AND OTHER THINGS.

Question 2: Do gravitons obey the laws of physics?

maybe I am just a figment of your imagination and you are making me say that???

You again?

 

[Franko]

Then the premise of your syllogism

"You are made of atoms"

is incorrect. According to LD, you are made of atoms AND OTHER THINGS.

1) You don't believe it, so how does that help you prove "free will"?
2) For all you know I am a figment of your imagination and YOU are god in which case you would have your precious "free will".
3) Even if you are a Graviton, YOU ARE MADE OF ATOMS is still True in this universe, so you still wouldn't have any "free will"

Not even the Goddess has "free will" Trixy.

Question 2: Do gravitons obey the laws of physics?

They obey a higher law ... You'd probably call it Thermodymics.

 

[Tricky]

They obey a higher law ... You'd probably call it Thermodymics.

Thermodynamics is not part of The Laws of Physics? This is gonna come as a real shock to the science community.

But do continue. This stuff is priceless.

 

[Rosetta Stone]

Tricky:

I'd say they were definitely real, but then again maybe I am just a figment of your imagination and you are making me say that???

Another penny drops.

EVIDENCE: (rather lack thereof)

When you see this "figment of the imagination" phrase, take it to mean, "I don't know, but I am not going to say that. It is your problem to tell me what you think it means".

- Rosetta. (Decoding the Lexicon one term at a time.)

 

[Tricky]

Which of the 4 fundamental forces does Thermodynamics fall under Trixy?

No no! I want to hear your version. Mine would be much less entertaining.

No it was priceless when you deferred to Pixypants for your "knowledge" of Gravitational Charge and the two of you were fed your hats.

I'm under the impression that what I was eating was your lunch. You must be getting pretty hungry by now.

Oh yeah. What about that "gravitational charge". Did you ever give us a good explanation as to why "charged gravity" does not interact with electromagnetic fields?

 

[Franko]

Thermodynamics is not part of The Laws of Physics? This is gonna come as a real shock to the science community.

Which of the 4 fundamental forces does Thermodynamics fall under Trixy? (you are unable to answer this -- aren't you Trixy?)

But do continue. This stuff is priceless.

No it was priceless when you deferred to Pixypants for your "knowledge" of Gravitational Charge and the two of you were fed your hats.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Moving posts again, heheh?
Hans

 

[Franko]

Still nothing to say but Woo-woo MRC?

How unpredictable A-Theist!

What was that you were telling me about your "free willy god"?

 

[CWL]

Still nothing to say but Woo-woo MRC?

How unpredictable A-Theist!

What was that you were telling me about your "free willy god"?

I have a better suggestion. Why don't you tell us about our "free willy god"? What exactly do you mean by the term? Are we talking about some rather promiscuous deity, or did you have something else in mind?

 

[Franko]

CWLoser: (pathetic A-Theist)
Why don't you tell us about our "free willy god"? What exactly do you mean by the term?

It’s your belief CWL – not mine. Why do I need to explain it to you? I have been very clear about what I believe. Why are you unable to be as clear yourself?

Franko:
So do you still believe you have “free will” CWL, or do you believe that your actions are preordained by the deterministic laws of physics?

CWL:
Not convinced. I need evidence to believe someone else is pulling the strings. As far as I can tell I make my own choices. That makes this the default position for me.

So you are not obeying any rules or laws? The laws of Physics have no effect on you what-so-ever? You do not OBEY the Laws of Physics?

Or are you claiming that You are the Source of the Laws of Physics? You made up the laws of physics in your own mind, so therefore even if they control you, you control them?

Is that what you are claiming CWL? Why are you trying to hide what you believe? Why all of this run around for so long? Why do you keep contradicting your self? Are you ashamed of your beliefs?

 

[CWL]

It’s your belief CWL – not mine. Why do I need to explain it to you? I have been very clear about what I believe. Why are you unable to be as clear yourself?

To the best of my knowledge I do not believe in any "god" at all. Suddenly you ascribe this belief in a "free willy god" to me. I think it's only fair you explain what you mean. Your term, not mine. Over.

So you are not obeying any rules or laws? The laws of Physics have no effect on you what-so-ever? You do not OBEY the Laws of Physics?

Did I ever claim this? Quotes please.

Or are you claiming that You are the Source of the Laws of Physics? You made up the laws of physics in your own mind, so therefore even if they control you, you control them?

What leads you to assume this? Quotes please.

Is that what you are claiming CWL? Why are you trying to hide what you believe? Why all of this run around for so long? Why do you keep contradicting your self? Are you ashamed of your beliefs?

Contradicting my self? Please exemplify. Quotes please.

 

[Franko]

Franko:
So you are not obeying any rules or laws? The laws of Physics have no effect on you what-so-ever? You do not OBEY the Laws of Physics?

CWL:
Did I ever claim this? Quotes please.

So which of us imagined all those arguments over the conclusion of my syllogism?

Atoms obey The Laws of Physics (TLOP).
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Franko:
Or are you claiming that You are the Source of the Laws of Physics? You made up the laws of physics in your own mind, so therefore even if they control you, you control them?

CWL:
What leads you to assume this? Quotes please.

Okay here is a recent quote from you:

CWL:
If we define ”Free Will” as the ability to make conscious choices between perceived and available options, one might consider constructing a little syllogism, thus:

Free Will is possible in a probabilistic universe
According to modern physics the Universe is probabilistic
Free Will is possible according to modern physics

So for the thousandth time or so, what is your evidence that you make “conscious choices between perceived options”?? If you always “choose” the most beneficial option, then how is that doing anything beyond what a computer does? You are obeying a set of Laws. YOU do not control those Laws. YOU did not create those Laws. The Laws are controlling YOU. The Laws created YOU. How does that give YOU “free will”? How does that give YOU the ability to make “choices”. If anything in the equation is making “choices” or has “free will”, surely it is TLOP, and not YOU.

How is your logic different? You claim that it does not work this way … okay – You explain how it works according to YOU.

Why are you going to such lengths to avoid explaining how you think it works CWL? You, MRC, and Trixy – all three of you. You go on and on, but none of you seems man enough to put their cards on the table. What are you hiding from?

Franko:
Is that what you are claiming CWL? Why are you trying to hide what you believe? Why all of this run around for so long? Why do you keep contradicting your self? Are you ashamed of your beliefs?

CWL:
Contradicting my self? Please exemplify. Quotes please.

I just spelled it out. Explain how you can have “free will” without being a mystic like the Elephant? Indeterminism and Mysticism are the same thing CWL. Indeterminism = Supernatural.