Logical? Deism.

[Tricky]

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

Funny, I don't remember saying such things. But I must have, because I'm sure you wouldn't do something so slimy as to actually quote things in my name that I haven't said. Perhaps you can provide links to the original quotes, as I have here, in the list of Franko's Beliefs.

Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatablist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are made of time
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.

Miscellaneous

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Ahh, Franko, I see that you have mastered the cunning use of cut-and-paste! Well done, my young padded one! Obi-Wan has taught you well.

PS. Don't forget to look up "Straw Man".

 

[Franko]

Me said: (two days ago ...)
You claim that no evidence for “god” means no “god”, but no evidence for “free will” means that “free will” exist anyway. (so much for Aardvart’s logical consistency).

Keep it up religious fanatic. You got nothing, and everyone sees it.

Aardvark: (last post)
Ahh, Franko, I see that you have mastered the cunning use of cut-and-paste! Well done, my young padded one! Obi-Wan has taught you well.
I hear and obey …

Aardvart:
PS. Don't forget to look up "Straw Man".

Aardvart, you are like some nitwit yelling “FIRE! FIRE!” in a crowded theater and thinking you’ve proved something. But all you have proved is that I am correct when I say the Religion of A-Theism is Nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Instead of yelling “FIRE!” you yell “STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN!” in a crowded RELIGION and Philosophy forum, but for your post to be anything other than the obvious diversion that it is you have to actually specify the actual logical fallacy in your opponents post, and you have to make it plain for anyone reading along to see.

Allow me to demonstrate:

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Aarvart, A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Aardvart, A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

But thank you aardvart for -- yet another -- display of A-Theistic religious fanaticism at it's "finest" ...

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Ok, just for the sake of argument, Franko:

Please point to where I have said that no evidence for God means no God.

There. Now that shouldn't prove too difficult.


By the way, a lack of belief in God is not the same as a belief that there is no God. Do you understand that?

And if you think that atheism means a belief that there is no God (and I admit that different dictionaries have different definitions), then I am not an atheist but an agnostic.


As for the straw man thingie: I did point out your straw man in your discussion with Dr. X, but you claimed that it wasn't a straw man. I could point it out to you again, but for some obscure reason I don't think it will make any difference.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to bang my head against a wall.

 

[wraith]

Wraith,
You yourself have said we are not made of atoms. You have said we are made of atoms plus other things. Do you remember what it is you said? Think hard! It starts with a G....

consciousness creates matter Twix...get with the program!

 

[wraith]

Which word do you not understand?

It's not the words...

RIGHT! You are so GOOOD when you really try! Structure! Even if we are built of nothing but atoms, the structure is crucial. So we "are made of" atoms + structure (information). This is why we behave differently from the moon: The moon's structure is different.

So the moon obeys TLOP yet we dont?

And as pointed out above, you can infer nothing from the behaviour of the moon. ... Actually, to make that comparison even more absurd, even if the moon WAS conscious, it would not have any physical means of deciding its orbit. You know, last time we looked, there were no giant rockets fixed anywhere up there.

again...
the moon obeys TLOP yet we dont?

YOU are the one saying that "we" are really souls or gravitons, remember? You know, maybe you should give up trying to divine what others think, and concentrate on getting your own thoughts straight. Your magical LD mind-reading capabilities are not exactly impressive

ever heard of "consciousness creating matter"??

 

[urstardust]

Ever heard of "consciousness creating matter"??

Ever heard of consciousness creating the of idea of God/gods?

 

[wraith]

Ever heard of consciousness creating the of idea of God/gods?

ever heard of consciousness creating the idea of no god/s?

 

[urstardust]

ever heard of consciousness creating the idea of no god/s?

Yes, and I have to say it's been a good one.

 

[c4ts]

One soul cannot = one graviton. Otherwise obese people would have more souls than short people, since according to the laws of physics (TLOP), all objects with mass attract each other, the more mass, the stronger the pull. Gravitons were theorized to exist as the subatomic particles responsible for this property of mass.

 

[wraith]

Yes, and I have to say it's been a good one.

if you see it that way......

 

[wraith]

One soul cannot = one graviton. Otherwise obese people would have more souls than short people, since according to the laws of physics (TLOP), all objects with mass attract each other, the more mass, the stronger the pull. Gravitons were theorized to exist as the subatomic particles responsible for this property of mass.

omg!

 

[MRC_Hans]

Just so you cant say I failed to answer:

It's not the words...

No, its in your selective view: You agree the syllogism is faulty due to fallacy of composition when applied to water, but you claim the fault is invisible when the same syllogism is applied to humans. In both cases, the problem is: The composite has different properties than its components.

So the moon obeys TLOP yet we dont?

No, the moon has no free will, we do.

again...
the moon obeys TLOP yet we dont?

--Or, to be precise, the moon is irrelevant to the discussion of free will for humans (rather obvious, it would seem )


ever heard of "consciousness creating matter"??


Well, somebody mentioned it. How does that vindicate your syllogism? I would say that it invalidated it. How do you explain that the matter-creating consciousness is bound by the laws of PHYSICS? Does coneciousness (the immaterial kind that you seem to believe in) obey tlop??

Anyhow, do you have any evidence that consciousness creates matter?

Hans

 

[CWL]

What the hell are you talkiing about CWL!?!?

Everyone knows that Materialism is True !!!

Obviously you are made of Atoms! What, you argument as grown sooo thin that you have to resort to crazy talk now?

CWL are you positing the existence of a "Soul"??? Come On! What kind of A-Theist are you religious fanatic? I swear you sound more and more like the Elephant every day. Are you the newest member of his mystery cult?

Franko,

Now try real hard to understand. Count to ten, think happy thoughts.

YOU posit the existence of a "soul" as evidenced by one of your recent posts to Upchurch:

Yes, that’s correct. Under Logical Deism you (your consciousness/your “Soul”) is actually a Graviton (fundamental force carrying particle of Gravity and Time). But Gravitons also obey (are bound by) logical rules.

As for me, I am prepared to go along for the sake of argument. I hope that spells it out for you. Glad we sorted that out. Now down to business:

As follows from the above you make the following assertions.

1) "A human consciousness is actually a Graviton (fundamental force carrying particle of Gravity and Time)". Ok. I understand this claim.

2) "But Gravitons also obey (are bound by) logical rules". Not quite sure about this one. When you say "also" do you mean that Gravitons also obey the laws of physics (TLOP="logical rules")?

Anyway, this is how your syllogism needs to be modified if we assume the existence of "Gravitons" as described by you:

• Premise 1: You are made of atoms and a Graviton
  Premise 2: Atoms and Gravitons obey TLOP
  Conclusion: You obey TLOP

This leads to a few questions which I was hoping you would answer:

• 
  
  1) General
  Is the modified syllogism true from the Logical Deist perspective?
  
  2) Premise 1 (You are made of...)
  a) Is there any evidence for the existence of the particle you call a "Graviton"?
  b) Is there any evidence that each such particle is the carrier of a human consciousness?
  
  3) Premise 2 (Atoms and Gravitons...)
  Is there any evidence that Gravitons obey the laws of physics in the same way that atoms do?

Being a skeptic and logician as you keep assuring us that you are, I am certain that you can answer the above calmly, politely and in a pedagogic fashion. Keep in mind that if you can provide the necessary evidence for the premises 1 and 2, you have proven the conclusion ("You obey TLOP") true, even from the perspective of your own cosmology. I assume that this may be of some interest to you.

 

[Franko]

CWL

YOU posit the existence of a "soul" as evidenced by one of your recent posts to Upchurch:

Perhaps, CWL, but I don’t see how the possibility that I believe in something called “the Soul” helps YOU prove the existence of your magical “free willy” powers???

By that logic wouldn’t a Christian’s belief in “god” make “god” exist for You?

Since you can’t read minds you have no idea what I actually believe CWL, and in any event I don’t see how what I believe has any effect of the amount of evidence (or complete lack thereof) of the things that You Believe?

Can you explain it for us … because this looks like another dishonest A-Theist attempt at diversion? CWL, if you can’t defend (or even explain) the things you believe you should just concede that fact, instead of repeatedly demonstrating your dogmatism and religious fervor.

 

[Franko]

c4ts (brainwashed religious fanatic):
One soul cannot = one graviton. Otherwise obese people would have more souls than short people, since according to the laws of physics (TLOP), all objects with mass attract each other, the more mass, the stronger the pull. Gravitons were theorized to exist as the subatomic particles responsible for this property of mass.

Hehehe! HAHAHAHAHA … !

Yeah, plus it would shatter all of the crystal spheres! ... hehehe ...

 

[Franko]

Hans-Job:

No, the moon has no free will, we do.

Why, explain it too us?

You are made of Atoms, the Moon is made of Atoms. How come you have the magical property of “free will” and the Moon does not? I can see where you are alive, and the Moon is not, are you claiming that all “living” things have “free will”?

Why not just say all “living” things are “alive” and leave it at that? What does “free will” get you that being “alive” doesn’t? If the two things are exactly the same then why do you need two different terms for it?

So Hans, do living things have the ability to defy TLOP, and non-living things don’t? Is that what you are claiming?

Hey MRC, if Determinism is really False as you claim, then how come Humans always give birth to other Humans? If Indeterminacy was True (as YOU claim), then won’t we occasionally expect a Human to give birth to a dog or a cat? I mean … you are claiming that the present is not based on the past, so why should what starts as a human baby always end up as a human baby?

 

[CWL]

CWL

Perhaps, CWL, but I don’t see how the possibility that I believe in something called “the Soul” helps YOU prove the existence of your magical “free willy” powers???

Aw, come on Franko. You must be brighter than this. That is not what we are discussing here.

But fair enough. If we assume the existence of a soul (or a graviton) how do we know that the soul has no free will?

"You are made of atoms" is clearly not the answer as the soul is not "made of atoms".

By that logic wouldn’t a Christian’s belief in “god” make “god” exist for You?

By what logic? What do you mean? Franko, I am seriously trying to see things from your perspective. Help me out here.

Since you can’t read minds you have no idea what I actually believe CWL, and in any event I don’t see how what I believe has any effect of the amount of evidence (or complete lack thereof) of the things that You Believe?

You claim your cosmology is true. I am offering you the fair opportunity to prove it.

Can you explain it for us … because this looks like another dishonest A-Theist attempt at diversion? CWL, if you can’t defend (or even explain) the things you believe you should just concede that fact, instead of repeatedly demonstrating your dogmatism and religious fervor.

I am perfectly willing both to explain and defend everything that I believe.

1) I do not believe in God as I see no evidence therefore. As any good skeptic, I know that a positive assertion must be backed by evidence. As any good skeptic I do not, however, rule out the possibility of a God.

2) I observe myself making choices between perceived and available options. I am responsible for and must suffer the consequences of the choices I make. I see nothing that should lead me to assume otherwise. As any good skeptic I accept this simple empirical observation.

Now, as I have explained what I believe, it is your turn:

I have suggested this modified syllogism as the one suggested by you is clearly false if we are partially made of a "Graviton":

• Premise 1: You are made of atoms and a Graviton
  Premise 2: Atoms and Gravitons obey TLOP
  Conclusion: You obey TLOP

In relation hereto, I once again kindly ask you to answer the following questions:

• 
  1) General
  Is the modified syllogism true from the Logical Deist perspective?
  
  2) Premise 1 (You are made of...)
  a) Is there any evidence for the existence of the particle you call a "Graviton"?
  b) Is there any evidence that each such particle is the carrier of a human consciousness?
  
  3) Premise 2 (Atoms and Gravitons...)
  Is there any evidence that Gravitons obey the laws of physics in the same way that atoms do?

 

[CWL]

CWL,

If you want to keep demonstrating your religious fanaticism, and the fact that you have no evidence for any of the things you believe, I will be more than happy to assist you.

I am not asking for any such assistance. I am asking you to assist me in understanding your cosmology.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

Funny, I don't recall any such conversation.

Again, this is my one and only statement on the subject of "free will":

I observe myself making choices between perceived and available options. I am responsible for and must suffer the consequences of the choices I make. I see nothing that should lead me to assume otherwise.

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

Funny, I don't recall any such conversation either.

Here is my one and only statement on the existence of God:

I do not believe in God as I see no evidence for the existence of God. As any good skeptic, I know that a positive assertion must be backed by evidence. As any good skeptic I do not, however, rule out the possibility of a God.

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

Thanks. As you have presented some evidence, I accept the burden of disproving your evidence as promised.

1) This is a fallacy of composition. Atoms cannot make any choices because they are not conscious. If atoms are structured in a certain way, a resulting conscious entity may result. Such an entity (a human for instance) may very well be able to make choices between percieved and available options.

2) According to your own cosmology we are not only made of atoms but also of a "graviton". Thus the second premise of the syllgism is false from your own perspective. It may be true notwithstanding but you need to demonstrate (i) that gravitons exist; (ii) that gravitons are carriers of human consciousness; and (iii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics exactly like atoms.

Back to you Franko.

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU. [/B]

Thanks. Burden of proof is temporarily assumed.

That I control my car (which is not conscious, agreed)
says nothing about TLOP. The statement in question can therefore not be evidence that TLOP is conscious.

Back to you Franko.

 

[Tricky]

Gosh! A new breakthrough for Logical Deism! The Form Insult.