Logical? Deism.

[CWL]

Youre view of matter has to change to understand the view of the LD.

Fine. Then demonstrate why I need to change it. Your syllogism as it is worded says nothing about the validity of your cosmology.

Youre trying to observe the universe through the "matter creates consciousness" belief.

No. I am trying to observe it through the "consciousness creates matter" belief and it doesn't work.

Maybe if I try harder:

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of atoms
You obey TLOP

Nope. Still doesn't work. You see, with my Logical Deist goggles on, it is obvious to me that the second premise isn't true. I am not just made of atoms or I am not really "atoms" at all - I am a "graviton". Either way the second premise is incorrect.

You didnt even recognise the Soul. Your Soul is the Graviton. Your Consciousness.

Ok. Let's assume that.

Hmmm, nope. Premise 2 is still wrong. I am made of "atoms and a graviton", not merely "atoms".

Again, whatever I say would be meaningless to you if you work under the "matter creating consciousness" framework.

I cannot work under the "consciousness creates matter" framework unless you prove that such framework is relevant.

Come one, work with me here. Why do you assume the existence of a soul? Does the soul "obey TLOP"? If so, how do you know this to be true?

lets just say that the Gravity of others is testing your Sanity muhaha

No, let's not. Let's instead just say that you are in a position where you need to provide evidence for:

• (i) the existence of gravitons; and
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics

 

[CWL]

OK CWL, in this Universe, besides atoms, what else am I made of?

Easy. Just let me put on my

[Logical Deist goggles]

un graviton, ein Graviton, um graviton, en graviton, or in plain old English: a graviton.

[/Logical Deist goggles]

Now does this image of a stout, bawling damsel apply...

...or can you actually provide evidence for:

• (i) the existence of gravitons; and
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics

?

 

[Upchurch]

This might be out of subject..But men, no offense, but that guy upchurch is ugly...He needs to remove his pic there...

This is where I'm supposed lay down a verbally abusive retort but I keep getting hung up on two elements of what muscleman said:

"no offense" ... "upchurch is ugly"

In other words, "I'm going to shoot my mouth off, but I don't want anyone to not like me or be upset with me." I am utterly astounded by complete lack of:

• 
  1. Manners
  2. Self-confidence
  3. Common sense
  4. Ability to focus on what is important (here and in general)
  5. Tact
  6. Grammer
  7. Sentince structure

Oh. Hey, look there. I managed to be verbally abusive after all. Well, muscleman, with well thought out well constructed posts like that one, I'm sure you'll do just fine here.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The invisible error relates to the "atoms obey TLOP" syllogism


So you have "selectively challenged vision" (PC for double standard).

come on...are you serious?
Are you saying that the state of you now is equal to the state when you are stirred up in the vat? I dont control TLOP by the way

Hint: Always read the whole post before replying.
No, thats exactly what I'm not saying
Why, right, you dont control TLOP. And?

NO
Youre states are different. You have the "normal CWL" state and the "gooey liquefied CWL" state. Are you consciousness at this point?


Are you? Hint: Proof read.

Youre above arguments dont illustrate this point at all

The moon is made up of more than one atom. Does it obey TLOP?

And the moon is relevant how?


OK CWL, in this Universe, besides atoms, what else am I made of?


Uhhhn now, who WERE you talking to? Well, I know its hard. Since you say you are not a materialist, I'm sure you have a good answer yourself. But let me guess: Its something about gravitons

[/B]

Hans

 

[CWL]

This is where I'm supposed lay down a verbally abusive retort but I keep getting hung up on two elements of what muscleman said:

"no offense" ... "upchurch is ugly"

In other words, "I'm going to shoot my mouth off, but I don't want anyone to not like me or be upset with me." I am utterly astounded by complete lack of:

• 
  1. Manners
  2. Self-confidence
  3. Common sense
  4. Ability to focus on what is important (here and in general)
  5. Tact
  6. Grammer
  7. Sentince structure

Oh. Hey, look there. I managed to be verbally abusive after all. Well, muscleman, with well thought out well constructed posts like that one, I'm sure you'll do just fine here.

Well Up-Da-Funk, for what it's worth I always thought your avatar was great. It is positive and funny. Who can resist the old "thumbs up", eh?

But enough of this bickering people - there are more important issues being discussed here! Such as the question of whether

Atoms AND gravitons obey TLOP
You are made of atoms AND gravitons
You obey TLOP

is a true and accurate statement.

I believe that someone was, for this very purpose, just about to provide the irrefutable evidence of:

• (i) the existence of gravitons; and
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics.

 

[Upchurch]

It is positive and funny. Who can resist the old "thumbs up", eh?

I'll admit, I'm a ham. But at least I have enough self confidence to post under my real name and face...

Atoms AND gravitons obey TLOP
You are made of atoms AND gravitons
You obey TLOP

is a true and accurate statement.

Actually, from the LD perspective, I believe "You are made of atoms and A graviton." Subtle, but important point. Although would someone with MPD have multiple gravitons? You'd think scientists would be looking at them for evidence of gravitons just because the likelyhood is greater....

I believe that someone was, for this very purpose, just about to provide the irrefutable evidence of:

• (i) the existence of gravitons; and
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics.

I believe that gravitons, should they exist, would obey the laws of physics, but whose TLOP? Those defined by Franko or those defined by mainstream science? I'm not saying I know (although I have a guess), I'm just asking the question.

While we're at it, if Franko or mainstream scientists do discover proof for the existance of the graviton, whose definition of graviton will behave like? We shall have to wait and see....

 

[CWL]

I'll admit, I'm a ham. But at least I have enough self confidence to post under my real name and face...

I commend you, Sir.

Actually, from the LD perspective, I believe "You are made of atoms and A graviton." Subtle, but important point. Although would someone with MPD have multiple gravitons? You'd think scientists would be looking at them for evidence of gravitons just because the likelyhood is greater....

You are right of course.

It is either:

You are made of atoms and a graviton
Atoms and gravitons obey TLOP
You obey TLOP

or (if "atoms" should be considered as a mere illusion)

You are a graviton
Gravitons obey TLOP
You obey TLOP

Anyway you slice it, evidence for the following is dearly needed:

• (i) the existence of gravitons;
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics; and

(heck, while we're at it, let's throw in a third assertion that is in need of evidence)

• (iii) that gravitons are carriers of (human) consciousness.

 

[Upchurch]

if "atoms" should be considered as a mere illusion

hm...

Well, if gravitons are the seat of consciousness (or soul or whatever) and consciousness creates matter (atoms, humans bodies, cars, etc.), then gravitons must not be made of matter. If they were, then consciousness is also made of matter and that would be matter creating consciousness, which is strictly forbidden by LD (at least, according to Franko, et al).

At this point, one might argue that gravitons/consciousness is energy and not matter, but Einstein showed through electrodynamics and relativity that energy and matter equivalent, which leads us back to matter/energy creating consciousness, which is forbidden.

So, we must conclude that gravitons/consciousness is made of, or exists as, something other than matter or energy. As far as we know them, the laws of physics only deal with matter and energy, so we really have no mechinism to describe what these non-matter/energy things might be.

However, LD claims to have an alternative form of our description of physical laws. This may account for this new type of non-matter/energy things. Like many, I would love to read the alternative form of TLOP.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Speaking of ugly: Look at that CWL dude! He looks like a big foot with a bit of white fluff stuck on top.

---

CWL and Upchurch, have you considered that trying to understand the LD is quite likely to drive you insane? And not insane in a good let's-all-bathe-in-mud way but in a bad Franko-like way... Think about it.

 

[CWL]

Speaking of ugly: Look at that CWL dude! He looks like a big foot with a bit of white fluff stuck on top.

I resent that! A few corns here and there doesn't make a foot ugly.

Besides Sir, you look like a drunken... aardvark!

 

[Upchurch]

Gentlemen, please!

Just because someone insults the way you look is no reason to... to...

Flashback of post by Upchurch

Oh. Hey, look there. I managed to be verbally abusive after all. Well, muscleman, with well thought out well constructed posts like that one, I'm sure you'll do just fine here.

...Nevermind

 

[Franko]

muscleman:

This might be out of subject..But men, no offense, but that guy upchurch is ugly...He needs to remove his pic there...

and Hans, I read all your post above...I agree with it completely without a doubt....

Tell me about it!

I gave him the same advice months ago! Jesus Christ -- I wonder if even a mother could love that dorky mug ...

Upchimp ... the tribe is spoken ... You look like a doofus!

 

[Franko]

CWL and Aardvark ... single handedly trying to transform R&P into the Banter section (their attempts at turning it into Infidels.org Jr. having apparently failed and been abadoned).

 

[CWL]

CWL and Aardvark ... single handedly trying to transform R&P into the Banter section (their attempts at turning it into Infidels.org Jr. having apparently failed and been abadoned).

Not at all Frank. Let's continue the debate. So let's see where we were.... oh yes...

According to Logical Deism "You are made of atoms" is not correct. Hence your famous syllogism is false from the perspective of Logical Deism.

Instead it should reasonably be something along the lines of

You are made of atoms and a graviton
Atoms and gravitons obey TLOP
You obey TLOP

or (if "atoms" should be considered as a mere illusion)

You are a graviton
Gravitons obey TLOP
You obey TLOP

Either way, this puts you in a position where you have to prove:

• (i) the existence of gravitons;
  (ii) that gravitons obey the laws of physics;

...if you wish to prove that your syllogism is true from the LD perspective (which according to you is, of course, the correct perspective).

Oh - you may also want to prove this as I suppose it is rather crucial to your cosmology:

• (iii) that gravitons are carriers of (human) consciousness.

I am sure you will manage all this for us, being a SKEPTIC and all...

The audience is listening...

 

[Franko]

According to Logical Deism "You are made of atoms" is not correct. Hence your famous syllogism is false from the perspective of Logical Deism.

What the hell are you talkiing about CWL!?!?

Everyone knows that Materialism is True !!!

Obviously you are made of Atoms! What, you argument as grown sooo thin that you have to resort to crazy talk now?

CWL are you positing the existence of a "Soul"??? Come On! What kind of A-Theist are you religious fanatic? I swear you sound more and more like the Elephant every day. Are you the newest member of his mystery cult?

 

[Franko]

Here's my latest list for anyone interested:

THE ARMAGGEDDON LIST

This list is nothing more then my own personal, subjective opinions of who on this forum is an Atheist, an Agnostic, or a Theist/Deist. Don’t complain to me that you are on “the wrong list”. 1) This is only My opinion, and 2) Actions speak louder than words ...

The Forces of Light – the Saved
Consciousness makes Matter – Deist/Theist
(people who are Sane/Lucid)

Beleth
Beth Paulkey (Butch Slade)
BiliousGreen
BobM
Christian
Csense [mia]
dsm
Filip Sandors [mia]
Franko (Serpent)
Gentlehorse
hammegk (Mr. Hand)
Interesting Ian (Mr. Quick)
Jedi Knight (Knight)
LukeT (Luke)[mia]
metachristi
PotatoStew
Roadtoad
S & S
Sorgoth
stamenflicker
strongstevesaint (Mr. Sleep)
Thanz
Win
Wraith (Wraith)
Yalel


The Legion of Darkness – the Damned
Matter makes consciousness – Atheist
(Religious Fanatics)

a_unique_person [mia]
Aardvark
aerosolben [mia]
arcticpenguin
AtheistArchon [mia]
Billyhoyt [mia]
c4ts
chulbert
Colloden [mia]
CWL
DanishDynamite
De_Bunk [mia]
Diogenes
Dorman [mia]
Doubt
evildave
Fool
Fade
Futurefan [mia]
GoodPropaganda
Gnome
ImpyTimpy
joshua korosi
Kodiak [mia]
Latimer
Legally Insane
Lizardpeople
Lucifuge Rofocale
Oceansize [mia]
Paradox [mia]
PixyMisa
Plutarck
Resonabledoubt [mia]
Magnifico
Mossy
MRC_Hans
Segnosaur [mia]
Shemp
Sir-drinks-a-lot
Stimpson (Necromancer)
Synaesthesia
Thaifoodken
Titanpoint [mia]
Tricky
Trish [f] [mia]
Upchurch
Victor Danilchenko
Whitefork
Wolfgirl [f] [mia]
xrayecho [mia]
Yahzi
Zombified


Neutral Charge – No Allegiance
Not enough information – Agnostic
(If you are on this list, then I consider you a Skeptic)

Bjorn (-)
BillyJoe (=)
Crocodile Deathroll (-)
Darat (-)
Davidhorman (-)
Frank Newgent (?)
Graham (=)
Gregor (-)
Hal bidlack (=)
Kimpatsu (+)
LeFevre (+)
Lillyofthepink (-)[f][mia]
Loki (-)
Luceiia (+) [mia]
Martinm(-)
Pahansiri (+)
Q-Source (-) [f]
Randfan (+)
Scribble (+) (Mobius)
Seelie (+) [f]
Slimshady (+) (Shadow)
SortingItAllOut (+)
Soubrette (+) (Enchantress) [f]
Shroud of Akron (-) [mia]
Sundog (-)
Vorticity (+)
Whodini (-)



[mia] = I haven’t seen you posts in the R&P in a while.

Religious Person = a person who has at least one metaphysical belief which they cannot prove (and is not disproven) which the individual acknowledges they hold purely because it makes them “happy”.

Religious Fanatic = a person who holds at least one metaphysical belief which is obviously contradicted by empirical observation (i.e. they hold a logically contradictory belief), yet the person refuses to acknowledge this fact.

 

[Upchurch]

What the hell are you talkiing about CWL!?!?

Everyone knows that Materialism is True !!!

Obviously you are made of Atoms!

Actually, all he's saying is that, under LD and based on what you said in the past, people are not only made up of atoms but also gravitons (or rather a single graviton per person). Correct?

Also, is it necessary to spam with a non-sequitar list?

 

[Franko]

Actually, all he's saying is that, under LD and based on what you said in the past, people are not only made up of atoms but also gravitons (or rather a single graviton per person). Correct?

Yes, that’s correct. Under Logical Deism you (your consciousness/your “Soul”) is actually a Graviton (fundamental force carrying particle of Gravity and Time). But Gravitons also obey (are bound by) logical rules.

Also, is it necessary to spam with a non-sequitar list?

If you are going to call yourself A-Theist, then you should be proud of it. Does my list really bother you Upchurch?

 

[Upchurch]

Does my list really bother you Upchurch?

Lists don't bother me at all. I had lots of fun with Bethke's list. His had fun activities. Yours just taking up space and has nothing to do with LD, is all I'm saying.

If gravitons are part of the funamental make up of humans, and not just atoms. What, in a materialistic sense, are gravitons made of? Matter? Energy? Something else entirely?

 

[Franko]

Lists don't bother me at all. I had lots of fun with Bethke's list. His had fun activities. Yours just taking up space and has nothing to do with LD, is all I'm saying.

I disagree.

If gravitons are part of the funamental make up of humans, and not just atoms. What, in a materialistic sense, are gravitons made of? Matter? Energy? Something else entirely?

Technically You could say Energy or Information. But if you want to be really accurate – Gravitons are made of Time.