Logical? Deism.

[Upchurch]

Technically You could say Energy or Information.

Well, "Energy" wouldn't fit with what you've said before. Energy is equvalent to mass/matter and graviton/consciousness made of matter, constitutes matter creating consciousness which, according to LD, is forbidden.

But if you want to be really accurate – Gravitons are made of Time.

Groovy. This must be based on the LD's alternative form of TLOP (as opposed to mainstream understanding of physics). Is it at all possible for you to present the details of this alternative form (mathematical formulae, first principle concepts used, etc)? Or perhaps provide a link to said details?

 

[Tricky]

Anyone for Tenets?

I have been trying to update my list of “Tenets of Logical Deism”. First off, to be fair, Franko has said:

Logical Deism is based on 3 tenets. If you believe these things are the only logical conclusion for a rational mind, and you call yourself a “logical deist” (and another LD recognizes you as such) then you are a logical deist. A logical deists can hold any other religious affiliations he desires so long as they are not in direct conflict with the 3 tenets of logical deism.

1) GOD – God Exists.
2) SOUL – All conscious entities have a unique Soul.
3) FATE/KARMA – You are ultimately responsible for all your actions and words (Same as “Divine justice” to a Christian)

So the following list is only things Franko believes are implied by Logical Deism.

Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatablist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are made of time
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.

Miscellaneous

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)

---------------
As you may note, I’m now trying to give specific links to where these tenets were mentioned. This is an incredible amount of work, sifting through 5000+ posts for original material, so you will understand if my updates are not speedy. I also apologize to those who sent me stuff, but I lost it.

Any help would be welcome.

And Franko, as always, I want you to sign off on these. I am trying not to make any straw men.

 

[Franko]

Tricky (deceitful A-Theist)

And Franko, as always, I want you to sign off on these. I am trying not to make any straw men.

Don’t hold your breath for any endorsement from me non-skeptical religious fanatic.

I’m still waiting for your evidence for “free will”?

I’m still waiting for you to explain why the universe mysteriously appearing out of no where should not be considered magical? If it’s not magical (as you claim), then you should have no trouble explaining it logically for us? So why haven’t you done it in all this Time Tricky?

Is something physically preventing you from explaining the logic behind your religious dogma?

Or perhaps you have no logic to explain your absurd religious dogma? Perhaps the only explanation is you pessimism and dire wishful thinking? You are cynical about your future, and it shows. That is the sum of the evidence for your a-Theism. And with every post where you dodge the real issue you just reaffirm this obvious fact.

 

[Franko]

Well, "Energy" wouldn't fit with what you've said before. Energy is equvalent to mass/matter and graviton/consciousness made of matter, constitutes matter creating consciousness which, according to LD, is forbidden.

You are getting warmer little Graviton …

Don’t forget Upchurch, there is a reason why I call people like you and Stimpy “Pseudo-Materialists”. That’s because the LD are the True Materialist.

Groovy. This must be based on the LD's alternative form of TLOP (as opposed to mainstream understanding of physics). Is it at all possible for you to present the details of this alternative form (mathematical formulae, first principle concepts used, etc)? Or perhaps provide a link to said details?

It’s so cute when you pretend to be smart Upchimp. You do realize that even by Your “understanding” of physics there is a vital link between Gravity and Time – don’t you? Do you remember when Einstein came along … and then Space and Time became Spacetime?

Is this ringing any bells yet?

 

[Tricky]

Don’t hold your breath for any endorsement from me non-skeptical religious fanatic.

Why not? I have not twisted your words. I have not made straw men. I have copied exactly what you said and offered to change them if you think they are wrong, and I have even provided links to where you said some of them. What could be more fair? Are you ashamed to admit you said these things? Well, I certainly understand, but alas, you did say them, and now you must face the consequences of your actions. Own up to your statements, Franko. It is the "Logical" thing to do.

I’m still waiting for your evidence for “free will”?

The reason you are waiting is because the "free will" bus came by, and you missed it. I have given you evidence numerous times (you want links?). Don't whine because you can't read schedules.

I’m still waiting for you to explain why the universe mysteriously appearing out of no where should not be considered magical? If it’s not magical (as you claim), then you should have no trouble explaining it logically for us? So why haven’t you done it in all this Time Tricky?

Ah, my little spiritual one, let me explain. Ignorance does not imply magic. If so, you would be the most magical creature in the universe. Honest people admit when they don't know something. I don't know the origin of the universe. If you say that makes it "magical", then you go on and live in your little fairy tale world. I'm sure it is more appealing to you than this mundane, real world which has no magic.

Is something physically preventing you from explaining the logic behind your religious dogma?

Ah, you wan't logic? I can give you logic, completely free of fallacies of composition. How about this one.

Everything real has a creator
The creator of the omniverse does not have a creator.
The creator of the omniverse is not real.

Can you find an error in that syllogism?

Perhaps the only explanation is you pessimism and dire wishful thinking?

Pessimistic yet wishful? I am impressed with your ability to create a self contradiction in an eleven word sentence. You might be a pretty good BOBS player

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (deceitful A-Theist)

The reason you are waiting is because the "free will" bus came by, and you missed it. I have given you evidence numerous times (you want links?). Don't whine because you can't read schedules.

Ohhhh … so you actually presented your evidence for magic “free willy” powers, but I just “missed it” somehow?

Hehehe … Trixy, your fanaticism becomes more and more obvious. So you have secretly proved that “free will” exist (the same guy who “proved” Toast is more complex than a human) but you are refusing to repost the “proof”? Either 30 years of devotion to the cult of pessimism have severely eroded your brain, or you have an extremely over-inflated sense of your credibility.

Ah, my little spiritual one, let me explain. Ignorance does not imply magic.

So you are again claiming that You can “comprehend” things which you readily admit you cannot comprehend (or explain)?

Yeah, and Toast is superior to a human being, and Dictionaries still make sense even if they aren’t logical …

Honest people admit when they don't know something.

Which is why you are not admitting the obvious fact that people who don’t believe in consequences for their actions will behave as if there are no consequences for their actions (less morally).

Or why you are not admitting the obvious fact that you have no magic “free will” powers.

No evidence for “god” means no “god”, yet no evidence for “free will” means you have magic “free will” powers?

I guess when your Dictionary isn’t logical … that’s your definition of “Honesty”?

I don't know the origin of the universe. If you say that makes it "magical" …

If you claim that the Universe magically appeared out of no where, and then escaped an inescapable singularity and that you can’t explain why I shouldn’t consider this “magical”, but I should just take your word for it because you have been devoted to the cult of A-Theism for 30 years, and you just know your pathetic religion is the “one true faith”, so I should just really really trust you, have faith in you, and take your word for it … Then I’d say you are a frickin religious fanatic and a mystic with a magical belief system. I’d say that you sounded just like the Undercoverelephant.

… then you go on and live in your little fairy tale world.

Yeah, that is the “fairly tale” world where the present is actually based on the past, and not the magic of “Indeterminacy” …. Ooooo “spooky” …

I'm sure it is more appealing to you than this mundane, real world which has no magic.

You mean no magic except for the “magic powers” you can’t explain, or magic toast and cars which are superior in consciousness to you, or magic universes which appear out of no where, and then miraculously escape inescapable singularities, or photons that magically occupy two places – but only when you aren’t actually looking, or things in the future will not …

 

[Tricky]

Take a look, Franklin. I posted things you said. I provided links. All you can do is post things you say I have said, but never have any proof. you have pinned yourself to the board like a dead butterfly, and even written your own identification, Prevaricatus illogicus.

 

[wraith]

Fine. Then demonstrate why I need to change it. Your syllogism as it is worded says nothing about the validity of your cosmology.

Because matter creating consciousness is full of it
What kind of nut bag believes that a rock evolves into a conscious entity

No. I am trying to observe it through the "consciousness creates matter" belief and it doesn't work.

Maybe if I try harder:

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of atoms
You obey TLOP

Nope. Still doesn't work. You see, with my Logical Deist goggles on, it is obvious to me that the second premise isn't true. I am not just made of atoms or I am not really "atoms" at all - I am a "graviton". Either way the second premise is incorrect.

Everyone take note here, we are not made of atoms!
Titan Point or VD may have some words with you about this

Ok. Let's assume that.

Hmmm, nope. Premise 2 is still wrong. I am made of "atoms and a graviton", not merely "atoms".

Lets say that youre a lone Graviton, wandering through the void....then all of a sudden, this tidal wave of information comes "crashing" into you like a wave crashing into a rock .
What happens?
You perceive this Universe.

I cannot work under the "consciousness creates matter" framework unless you prove that such framework is relevant.

Come one, work with me here. Why do you assume the existence of a soul? Does the soul "obey TLOP"? If so, how do you know this to be true?

I dont assume the existence of a soul, unless you assume the existence your own consciousness

 

[wraith]

So you have "selectively challenged vision" (PC for double standard).

what are you talking about?

Hint: Always read the whole post before replying.
No, thats exactly what I'm not saying
Why, right, you dont control TLOP. And?

You said that the chemicals dont act like a human when they are stirred up.
How could they? You have totally changed the makeup of a living human that obeys TLOP.

wraith:Youre above arguments dont illustrate this point at all

The moon is made up of more than one atom. Does it obey TLOP?

Hans: And the moon is relevant how?

Im saying that, like the moon, we dont choose anything.
We both obey TLOP.
You seem to think that since humans are made up of more than one atoms we have the ability to make "choice".

Uhhhn now, who WERE you talking to? Well, I know its hard. Since you say you are not a materialist, I'm sure you have a good answer yourself. But let me guess: Its something about gravitons.

Are you pulling a CWL aswell and saying that we are not made of atoms?

 

[Tricky]

Wraith,
You yourself have said we are not made of atoms. You have said we are made of atoms plus other things. Do you remember what it is you said? Think hard! It starts with a G....

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Ok, first Tricky said "I don't know the origin of the universe." And then...

If you claim that the Universe magically appeared out of no where, and then escaped an inescapable singularity and that you can’t explain why I shouldn’t consider this “magical”, aarg blaaarg A-Theist aaahh Evil etc.

If this is not final proof that Franko is stark raving mad, I don't know what is. Well, that or he's just totally stupid.

Oh wait, I forgot that it was already demonstrated in this thread that Franko has no idea what a straw man is (I find it particularly amusing that he asks me why Dr. X is a straw man). And recently he had an argument with CWL where it was demonstrated that he can't tell the difference between the straw men he creates and the actual views of other people (forgive me for not providing a link, I can't remember which thread it was - can anyone else?). Hmm, not being able to tell the difference between what's real and what's imaginary... that's called schizophrenia, isn't it?

 

[MRC_Hans]

what are you talking about?

Which word do you not understand?

You said that the chemicals dont act like a human when they are stirred up.
How could they? You have totally changed the makeup of a living human that obeys TLOP.

RIGHT! You are so GOOOD when you really try! Structure! Even if we are built of nothing but atoms, the structure is crucial. So we "are made of" atoms + structure (information). This is why we behave differently from the moon: The moon's structure is different.

Im saying that, like the moon, we dont choose anything.
We both obey TLOP.
You seem to think that since humans are made up of more than one atoms we have the ability to make "choice".

And as pointed out above, you can infer nothing from the behaviour of the moon. ... Actually, to make that comparison even more absurd, even if the moon WAS conscious, it would not have any physical means of deciding its orbit. You know, last time we looked, there were no giant rockets fixed anywhere up there.

Are you pulling a CWL aswell and saying that we are not made of atoms?

YOU are the one saying that "we" are really souls or gravitons, remember? You know, maybe you should give up trying to divine what others think, and concentrate on getting your own thoughts straight. Your magical LD mind-reading capabilities are not exactly impressive

Hans

 

[Franko]

Aardvark (brainwashed A-Theist Fanatic):

Oh wait, I forgot that it was already demonstrated in this thread that Franko has no idea what a straw man is (I find it particularly amusing that he asks me why Dr. X is a straw man). And recently he had an argument with CWL where it was demonstrated that he can't tell the difference between the straw men he creates and the actual views of other people (forgive me for not providing a link, I can't remember which thread it was - can anyone else?). Hmm, not being able to tell the difference between what's real and what's imaginary... that's called schizophrenia, isn't it?

Aardvark, how does your complete lack of evidence for your magic “free will” powers become a problem for me?

It’s not. It’s Your problem.

You claim that no evidence for “god” means no “god” exist, so why then does no evidence for “free will” mean you fervently believe in “free will” anyway?

Face it Aardvark, your religious dogma has become far more important to you than the truth has. If you want to keep coming to this forum and demonstrating this point, I will be more than happy to assist you day after day. I’ve been saying all along that you A-Theists are just another whacky pessimistic doomsday cult, and you prove my point consistently.

 

[Franko]

Tricky (lying A-Theist):

You yourself have said we are not made of atoms. You have said we are made of atoms plus other things. Do you remember what it is you said? Think hard! It starts with a G....

Oooo, deceitful and as misleading as I’ve come to expect A-Theist.

What difference does it make what the Wraith believes Trixy? You certainly don’t believe that we are made of anything other than Atoms, so how do you account for your magic “free will” powers?

Are you claiming that Atoms have “free will”?

How do Atoms acquire “free will” Trixy?

Does Toast also have “free will”?

Will you be using illogical definitions of terms, or can we get you to use logical definitions this time? … because without logical definitions your words are pretty much meaningless. (not like you actually have anything to say anyway though …)

 

[Aardvark_DK]

You claim that no evidence for “god” means no “god” exist, so why then does no evidence for “free will” mean you fervently believe in “free will” anyway?

How ironic that I've just said that Franko doesn't know what a straw man is. Not that it really matters, he doesn't know what irony is either.

 

[Franko]

Aardvark (A-Theist):
How ironic that I've just said that Franko doesn't know what a straw man is. Not that it really matters, he doesn't know what irony is either.

What I find really ironic is a religious fanatic on a skeptics forum with a blatant double standard.

You claim that no evidence for “god” means no “god”, but no evidence for “free will” means that “free will” exist anyway. (so much for Aardfart’s logical consistency).

Keep it up religious fanatic. You got nothing, and everyone sees it.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Q.E.D.

 

[Tricky]

Oooo, deceitful and as misleading as I’ve come to expect A-Theist.

Golly Franko, this new method of debating you have employed is just impossible to counter. When you start with two ad hominems, then naturally, everything that follows must be correct. Just as cowardly and evasive as I've come to expect from you. (You see, I'm studying your method!)

What difference does it make what the Wraith believes Trixy? You certainly don’t believe that we are made of anything other than Atoms, so how do you account for your magic “free will” powers?

You know, for someone who does it as much as you, you'd think you'd be better at lying. But since you appear to like being exposed, then I will oblige you by showing you where I stated that we were made of more than atoms. You're welcome.

How do Atoms acquire “free will” Trixy?

They don't.
How do humans acquire a soul/graviton, Franko? At what stage of development does the graviton enter the embryo?

Originally posted by Franko
Will you be using illogical definitions of terms, or can we get you to use logical definitions this time? … because without logical definitions your words are pretty much meaningless.

I tend to stick to standard dictionary definitions, because that way, every intelligent person can find what I mean. I would hesitate to use definitions from The Lexicon because there is no copy available. That makes it difficult for the readers to know what you mean when you use a word, because they can't look it up. Are you going to provide us a copy of The Lexicon anytime soon?

Originally posted by Franko
(not like you actually have anything to say anyway though …)

Ah, and close with an ad hominem too! You really have this debating stuff down pat, don't you!

 

[Franko]

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.



Trixy on the other hand claims that your CAR is more conscious. That’s no joke. (well actually we were using TLOP makes YOU makes TOASTER makes TOAST at the time, but … same difference)

... So Tricky A-Theist when are you going to post your "super-secret" proof of A-Theism? I'm sure Upchurch will be as eager to see it as I, since he has been honest enough to concede that he has no evidence for "free will" himself. Stimpy's said the same thing. So ... we're all waiting "Tricky" ... ?

 

[Franko]

Me said:
You claim that no evidence for “god” means no “god”, but no evidence for “free will” means that “free will” exist anyway. (so much for Aardvart’s logical consistency).

Keep it up religious fanatic. You got nothing, and everyone sees it.

Aardvark:
Q.E.D.
I hear and obey …