Logical? Deism.

[Franko]

Franko...is the only thing that makes you behave "morally" the fear that you'll be sent to the Abyss if you don't? Other peoples' feelings and rights are meaningless to you?

You really are an A-Theist Joshua. It is evident by the fact that you always think in the most pessimistic manner possible.

Perhaps I am moral, because I do care about other people’s feelings and “rights”?

You and the A-Theists seem far more concerned about “free will”, and there being “no consequences” for your actions. The reason you don’t want there to be consequences is because you constantly behave in an immoral fashion. I don’t have a problem with suffering the consequences for my actions, because I tend to act in an intrinsically moral manner where I don’t need to be concerned about the consequences. The consequences for my actions tend to be beneficial, and I notice that this seems to increase exponentially over Time.

 

[CWL]

CWhineyLoser,
By who’s definition of “sane” – Yours or Mine? According to Tricky, A-Theists Dictionaries are not required to be logical, which is the same as saying that A-Theist terms aren’t logical. So by your definition of “sane” I’d say -- who knows? By my definition of sane, no sane person EVER (knowingly) commits an immoral act.

Good. Then I take it we agree that it is logical to punish any SANE person for KNOWINGLY commiting an immoral act. Such a person has in other words made a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to act immoral. Ooops. Sounds like "free will" to me Franko.

What’s your rush A-Theists, are you that eager to cease to exist?

?!?

You are the LAWYER (bureaucrat of the penal system) claiming that Man does not need the threat of punishment to make him moral. You are the one who is clearly being hypocritical, and you are the one unable to explain the contradiction, so clearly you are acting in an obviously deceitful manner (just like ALL A-Theists).

Again, before you actually read and consider my posts on morality in the "Humanist Moral Code" thread and elsewhere I see no point in debating the subject with you.

Just FYI. I practice corporate and commercial law. I am not a "bureaucrat of the penal system".

You perception isn’t worth spit A-Theist.

Then try your own. Take a good objective look at your own behaviour on this forum. Is it humble? Is it pleasant? Is it moral?

 

[Franko]

Good. Then I take it we agree that it is logical to punish any SANE person for KNOWINGLY commiting an immoral act. Such a person has in other words made a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to act immoral. Ooops. Sounds like "free will" to me Franko.

When I say “knowingly” I mean in possession of the required information necessary to make an informed decision (decision in the MPB sense). When a plane crashes you don’t blame the pilot if the plane crashed due to a mechanical malfunction that was beyond the pilots ability to control (beyond his perception).

Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane. In other words, all immoral acts are due to A-Theism (pessimism, cynicism). Immoral acts are committed by people who believe they have “free will”, and who believe that there will be NO consequences for their actions. People who sincerely believe they will fry in Hell for Eternity for stealing, don’t steal. It’s always the nitwit who thinks he won’t get caught, that he won’t be punished who commits an illegal, or immoral act. A-theists!!!

Again, before you actually read and consider my posts on morality in the "Humanist Moral Code" thread and elsewhere I see no point in debating the subject with you.

In other words you are like that pathetic little lovesick schoolgirl I mentioned the other day. You call up the boy who you are secretly in love with, and when he answers the phone you hang up.

That is just how ridiculous you look to me right now CWL, and don’t think that no one else is reading along. I honestly don’t know how you can even bear to show you face in this forum at this point.

… actually I know exactly why you still do. My Gravity has you …

Then try your own. Take a good objective look at your own behaviour on this forum. Is it humble? Is it pleasant? Is it moral?

Sometimes, Yes, Definitely Yes.

But I realize that you see me as an Evil MutherF*cker CWL, there’s a reason for that too.

 

[CWL]

When I say “knowingly” I mean in possession of the required information necessary to make an informed decision (decision in the MPB sense). When a plane crashes you don’t blame the pilot if the plane crashed due to a mechanical malfunction that was beyond the pilots ability to control (beyond his perception).

Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane. In other words, all immoral acts are due to A-Theism (pessimism, cynicism). Immoral acts are committed by people who believe they have “free will”, and who believe that there will be NO consequences for their actions. People who sincerely believe they will fry in Hell for Eternity for stealing, don’t steal. It’s always the nitwit who thinks he won’t get caught, that he won’t be punished who commits an illegal, or immoral act. A-theists!!!

This just isn't so. You obviously do not base your conclusions on empirical observation.

In other words you are like that pathetic little lovesick schoolgirl I mentioned the other day. You call up the boy who you are secretly in love with, and when he answers the phone you hang up.

That is just how ridiculous you look to me right now CWL, and don’t think that no one else is reading along. I honestly don’t know how you can even bear to show you face in this forum at this point.

… actually I know exactly why you still do. My Gravity has you …

?!?

Sometimes, Yes, Definitely Yes.

But I realize that you see me as an Evil MutherF*cker CWL, there’s a reason for that too.

So constantly spouting unpleasantness at people is "humble", "pleasant" and "moral" to you Logical Deists? Interesting definitions... I really must get my hands of one of them "Lexicons" one of these days...

Anyhow, I don't think you are an "Evil MutherF*cker". You are more of a "Rude Little Pr*ck", really.

Like I said, I think you are a young person who (like many adolescents) thinks he has figured it all out. Fine, carry on. We all need to pass through a phase like that.

 

[Checkmite]

You really are an A-Theist Joshua. It is evident by the fact that you always think in the most pessimistic manner possible.

Perhaps I am moral, because I do care about other people’s feelings and “rights”?

Franko...you've been insulting CWL because he believes humans can be moral without threat of punishment lingering over their heads.

So I ask you to clarify, and you say that you behave morally for reasons other than the threat of punishment! Obviously, the threat of going to the Abyss isn't what makes you behave morally. But if that's true, then why do you insult CWL for agreeing with you? He also doesn't think the threat of the Abyss is necessary.

You and the A-Theists seem far more concerned about “free will”, and there being “no consequences” for your actions. The reason you don’t want there to be consequences is because you constantly behave in an immoral fashion. I don’t have a problem with suffering the consequences for my actions, because I tend to act in an intrinsically moral manner where I don’t need to be concerned about the consequences. The consequences for my actions tend to be beneficial, and I notice that this seems to increase exponentially over Time.

Franko, the idea of having "free will" and yet having "no consequences for your actions" is the reciprocal of all your actions being "predetermined", but still having consequences. I don't believe either can be true.

If my actions are predetermined...if some higher power called "Fate" actually moves my arm and makes me rob a bank, for instance, how am I responsible? How could I resist Fate, if I have no will?

I believe in Justice, and I believe we are all responsible for our actions - near or long term. But the only way I can take responsibility for my actions is if I am the sole one who decides to take them. If I do something wrong - "yes, I'm sorry, it was my decision, and it was my fault. Mine alone. I wasn't Fated to commit this immoral action. It's not "Fate's" fault." On the same token, if I do something wonderful and philanthropic - that was my decision, too. Mine alone - not Fate's.

On the other hand, if you are right, and every single action I take was decided before I was born, then what purpose would "punishing" me for that action serve? There's nothing wrong with me, I didn't decide to commit the immoral act. Fate decided it for me. Or the Goddess decided it for me. Since I have no "free will", I couldn't conceivably make a decision one way or the other.

 

[Franko]

Like I said, I think you are a young person who (like many adolescents) thinks he has figured it all out. Fine, carry on. We all need to pass through a phase like that.

So is this your evidence for "fre will" CWL?

You really are a stupid Bitch. Stop calling me chick, I'm not interested, and besides everyone thinks you are a dweeb.

 

[CWL]

So is this your evidence for "fre will" CWL?

You really are a stupid Bitch. Stop calling me chick, I'm not interested, and besides everyone thinks you are a dweeb.

No, but the above comment is clear evidence for you being a rude adolescent. Not to worry, one thing is certain about youth. It will pass.

 

[CWL]

[counts backwards from ten...]

It's a good thing you defined an "A-Theist" as "someone who does not agree with Franko 100%", else you would be feeling my wrath.

How else would one define the term?

 

[Franko]

Franko...you've been insulting CWL because he believes humans can be moral without threat of punishment lingering over their heads.

If CWL actually believed that then he wouldn’t be a LAWYER, and instead he would be calling for the abolition of prisons and punishment for crimes – according to CWL Men don’t need the threat of punishment to make them moral.

CWL is an obvious hypocrite, and he doesn’t like me pointing this out. That is why he acts like such a crying whiney little loser when he addresses me.

So I ask you to clarify, and you say that you behave morally for reasons other than the threat of punishment!

It’s rewarding … yes.

Obviously, the threat of going to the Abyss isn't what makes you behave morally.

The Abyss fears me, but I don’t fear the Abyss.

But if that's true, then why do you insult CWL for agreeing with you? He also doesn't think the threat of the Abyss is necessary.

CWL is homesick for Hell. He’s insane, he thinks I’m rude for pointing this out, but the A-Theists don’t like to cease to exist all alone. They want to drag as many Souls down with them as they can. I am not allowing CWL (or the other A-Theists here) to do this, and they don’t like it (or me) one bit because of that fact.

Franko, the idea of having "free will" and yet having "no consequences for your actions" is the reciprocal of all your actions being "predetermined", but still having consequences. I don't believe either can be true.

Like I said you have a childlike comprehension of Determinism. You want me to explain the “crystal spheres” that hold the planets in their “orbits” in your Flat Earth Universe. But there are no “crystal spheres”, the world isn’t Flat, and you don’t have “free will”.

If my actions are predetermined...if some higher power called "Fate" actually moves my arm and makes me rob a bank, for instance, how am I responsible? How could I resist Fate, if I have no will?

When you play D&D you can’t rob a bank without the DM allowing you to move your arm either, but that doesn’t make it the DM’s fault that you robbed a bank. You were just running an intrinsically evil character.

I believe in Justice, and I believe we are all responsible for our actions - near or long term. But the only way I can take responsibility for my actions is if I am the sole one who decides to take them.

So you don’t really consider your parents your parents because you weren’t the sole person who decided they would be your parents??? I am sure your parents would be thrilled to hear this?

Do you not consider the elementary school you went to as a child the elementary school you went to as a child because you were not the sole person to make the decision to go there?

If your wife wants a divorce, can you be the sole person to make the decision that She gets to divorce you?

You are living in a fantasy land my little confused A-Theist-Deist friend.

If I do something wrong - "yes, I'm sorry, it was my decision, and it was my fault. Mine alone. I wasn't Fated to commit this immoral action. It's not "Fate's" fault." On the same token, if I do something wonderful and philanthropic - that was my decision, too. Mine alone - not Fate's.

That’s True. But without Fate you would have never had such an opportunity to do wrong, or to do right. For that you owe Her. You want to spit in the DM’s eye, and then you wonder why your character never moves up a level, and always has such “bad luck”.

On the other hand, if you are right, and every single action I take was decided before I was born, then what purpose would "punishing" me for that action serve?

You are being judged, not punished. If you happen to perceive what happens next as punishment, then that is YOUR perception. What does the Goddess have to do with it?

There's nothing wrong with me, I didn't decide to commit the immoral act. Fate decided it for me. Or the Goddess decided it for me. Since I have no "free will", I couldn't conceivably make a decision one way or the other.

Josh, the fact of the matter is that some people are just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Can I force you to become friends with someone who is an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊? What makes you believe that some ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ can force me or the Goddess to become friends with them? If I think you are an ass, then guess what … I don’t want you around. If you consider that Me punishing You, then so be it. I am under no obligation to be friends with unpleasant, pessimistic, cynics who are no good to be around. If you want to be a pessimist, then you’ll have to deal with the consequences – not me or my Goddess.

 

[Checkmite]

When you play D&D you can’t rob a bank without the DM allowing you to move your arm either, but that doesn’t make it the DM’s fault that you robbed a bank. You were just running an intrinsically evil character.

The difference here is, Franko, saying the DM "allows" me to rob the bank implies that I want to rob the bank. If my actions are predetermined, and I have no free will to "want" to rob the bank, it would be like the DM (as the predeterminer) commanding me to rob the bank, whether I want to or not.

So you don’t really consider your parents your parents because you weren’t the sole person who decided they would be your parents??? I am sure your parents would be thrilled to hear this?

Do you not consider the elementary school you went to as a child the elementary school you went to as a child because you were not the sole person to make the decision to go there?

If your wife wants a divorce, can you be the sole person to make the decision that She gets to divorce you?

You are living in a fantasy land my little confused A-Theist-Deist friend.

No, Franko...I said the only way I could be held responsible for my actions is if I'm the one who decided to take those actions. "Who my parents are" isn't an action. "Which elementary school I attended" isn't an action. If I had a wife, and she wanted a divorce, that's not my action. I said the only way I could be responsible for MY actions is if I'm the one who decided to take them.

That’s True. But without Fate you would have never had such an opportunity to do wrong, or to do right. For that you owe Her. You want to spit in the DM’s eye, and then you wonder why your character never moves up a level, and always has such “bad luck”.

"Fate" wouldn't give me the "opportunity to do anything", "Fate" would simply force me to do something when it was my predetermined time to do it.

You are being judged, not punished. If you happen to perceive what happens next as punishment, then that is YOUR perception. What does the Goddess have to do with it?

Judged for what Fate forced me to do? Judged for what I had no control over?

Josh, the fact of the matter is that some people are just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Can I force you to become friends with someone who is an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊? What makes you believe that some ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ can force me or the Goddess to become friends with them? If I think you are an ass, then guess what … I don’t want you around. If you consider that Me punishing You, then so be it. I am under no obligation to be friends with unpleasant, pessimistic, cynics who are no good to be around. If you want to be a pessimist, then you’ll have to deal with the consequences – not me or my Goddess.

But I can't "want" to be a pessimist, because I have no will according to you, remember? "Fate" predetermined me a pessimist, whether I wanted to be or not.

 

[Franko]

The difference here is, Franko, saying the DM "allows" me to rob the bank implies that I want to rob the bank. If my actions are predetermined, and I have no free will to "want" to rob the bank, it would be like the DM (as the predeterminer) commanding me to rob the bank, whether I want to or not.

No, it is your algorithm intrinsically attempting to do what it is programmed to do, and it is Her Superior algorithm intrinsically supplying the required inputs and transmitting the required outputs. Fate.

No, Franko...I said the only way I could be held responsible for my actions is if I'm the one who decided to take those actions. "Who my parents are" isn't an action. "Which elementary school I attended" isn't an action. If I had a wife, and she wanted a divorce, that's not my action. I said the only way I could me responsible for MY actions is if I decided to take them.

Attending School and getting a divorce aren’t actions?

Let me ask you this, suppose you are driving home today, and some drunk crosses the center line, and collides with you head on at high speed? Didn’t YOU decide to take that particular route home? Why did you decide to leave work when you did? If you had waited another 10 or 15 minutes that drunk would have killed someone else (or maybe no one at all)!

Are you saying that you won’t suffer any consequences from this event?

Just what are you saying Joshua?

"Fate" wouldn't give me the "opportunity to do anything", "Fate" would simply force me to do something when it was my predetermined time to do it.

Imagine you are sitting around for eternity, doing absolutely nothing … then one day, I come to you and ask if you want to play D&D. Now regardless of what you think of D&D compared to doing nothing for eternity, D&D is loads of fun. So you start playing D&D … question is are you grateful to me for giving you the opportunity to play, or would you rather be sitting back in the void doing NOTHING?

Judged for what Fate forced me to do? Judged for what I had no control over?

What is Fate forcing you to do? You are an Algorithm, we are watching how you behave. If we like you, if we think you are a useful program, then maybe we’ll keep you. But if you are a bad program (like a computer virus), then we’ll purge you from the system, and reclaim any Energy we’ve added to you.

But I can't "want" to be a pessimist, because I have no will according to you, remember? "Fate" predetermined me a pessimist, whether I wanted to be or not.

Hey what do you want me to tell you? Everybody wants to be popular, everyone wants to be loved and adored. The problem is that a lot of people just aren’t willing to do what it takes. It’s hard work making and keeping friends. Well … at least it is if you don’t know what you are doing.

You want friends? You want my advice? Be more of an Optimist. No one wants to hang out with a pessimist. Not for very long anyway.

 

[Tricky]

Let's face it, boys and girls. Logical Deism says "Fate forces you to do everything and you will 'suffer consequences' for everything fate forces you to do". That is the statement of LD. For religious paradoxes, it outdoes even the Genesis creation story, but it doesn't matter how many times you point out the howlers to a Fundemental Christian, he's still gonna believe the bible is inerrant, even if he has to twist new meanings out of every word in it.

I reiterate

 

[Checkmite]

Franko, while I'm not leaving this second, I don't have enough time to properly respond to your last post, as there's a lot to be said (especially with regard to the D&D analogy) and I have to go to work soon. And as hard is it may be to believe, I respect you enough that I won't respond with an inadequate post that only covers half the material, so I'm afraid I must ask you to wait until I get home later this evening for a proper response.

If, while I'm gone, the forum or this thread in particular boils down to a flame war, I'm sure I can expect that you won't take that out on me when I finally return. We're having an excellent and relatively flame free (thus far) debate here between the two of us, as I'm sure you can agree.

 

[Franko]

Tricky (lying A-Theist):

Let's face it, boys and girls. Logical Deism says "Fate forces you to do everything and you will 'suffer consequences' for everything fate forces you to do". That is the statement of LD.

Actually that is YOUR statement A-Theist, but if other A-Theists want to accept you as a spokesman for LD they don’t need my permission, and they will suffer the consequences accordingly.

A Logical Deist is a Fatalist, that much is True. A Fatalist believes that all events occur because of logical objective rules, and not due to any magical or supernatural influences.

A person who does not believe in Fate (or Determinism, as it is also called), believes that events occur for magical, supernatural, unexplainable reasons. Such a person (an A-Theist) believes that they have magic “free will” powers. The present is not based on the past, nor will the future be based on the present. It is all indeterminable magic. Ergo there are no consequences for your actions.

For religious paradoxes, it outdoes even the Genesis creation story, but it doesn't matter how many times you point out the howlers to a Fundemental Christian, he's still gonna believe the bible is inerrant, even if he has to twist new meanings out of every word in it.

Speaking of paradoxes why is it that you claim that No evidence for “God” means that No “God” exist, yet in the very next breath you claim that no evidence for “free will” means that “free will” DOES exist? Why the absurd double standard?

You also believe that men do not need the threat of punishment to make them moral or honest, but if this is the case, then why do we need prisons? If men do not need the threat of punishment to make them moral and honest (as you claim), then why do we need to threaten men with punishment to make them moral and honest?

Are you claiming that if we eliminated all prisons and rescinded all criminal laws and all forms of punishment that the crime rate would remain unchanged? … why not?

I can’t say it enough Tricky, You are a hypocritical religious moron!

You are in the wrong forum … I think you are looking for www.infidels.org

 

[Tricky]

Tricky said:
Let's face it, boys and girls. Logical Deism says "Fate forces you to do everything and you will 'suffer consequences' for everything fate forces you to do". That is the statement of LD.

Actually that is YOUR statement A-Theist, but if other A-Theists want to accept you as a spokesman for LD they don’t need my permission, and they will suffer the consequences accordingly.

And exactly what part of the above quote is an inaccurate representation of what you have said?
Is everything determined by fate or not?
Are there consequences or not?

I have tried very hard not to misrepresent your statements, which is quite a task seeing as how you waffle so much. But I believe I can point to a number of posts where you have said these exact things. Yet you call me a liar.

A Logical Deist is a Fatalist, that much is True. A Fatalist believes that all events occur because of logical objective rules, and not due to any magical or supernatural influences.

There are atheists who believe this too. Other atheists believe that the logical, objective rules do not imply determinism. It isn't magical. It is a different understanding of the rules. I know you think it is impossible for you to be wrong about TLOP. I don't.

Speaking of paradoxes why is it that you claim that No evidence for “God” means that No “God” exist, yet in the very next breath you claim that no evidence for “free will” means that “free will” DOES exist? Why the absurd double standard?

I have never made either such statement and I challenge you to find where I have. Yet you call me a liar.

A person who does not believe in Fate (or Determinism, as it is also called), believes that events occur for magical, supernatural, unexplainable reasons. Such a person (an A-Theist) believes that they have magic “free will” powers. The present is not based on the past, nor will the future be based on the present. It is all indeterminable magic. Ergo there are no consequences for your actions.

Magical, no. Supernatural, no. Unexplainable, no. Unexplained, yes. I have told you this many times. I can show you the links. Yet you call me a liar.

You also believe that men do not need the threat of punishment to make them moral or honest, but if this is the case, then why do we need prisons? If men do not need the threat of punishment to make them moral and honest (as you claim), then why do we need to threaten men with punishment to make them moral and honest?

I have never claimed to believe such things. I challenge you to show where I have. Yet you call me a liar.

Are you claiming that if we eliminated all prisons and rescinded all criminal laws and all forms of punishment that the crime rate would remain unchanged? … why not?

I do not claim such things. There are some people who only respond to punishment. Ironically, most of them profess some religious belief. I do not believe that punishment is the only way or even the best way to influence someone for good. Teaching empathy is the best method, in my opinion.

I can’t say it enough Tricky, You are a hypocritical religious moron!

You can say it until you turn blue. Repeating a lie does not make it truthful. If you want to flame me, let's take it to the flame war section. These boards are for skeptics, a class to which you have no claim. Tell us again how gravitons have charge.

 

[CWL]

If CWL actually believed that then he wouldn’t be a LAWYER, and instead he would be calling for the abolition of prisons and punishment for crimes – according to CWL Men don’t need the threat of punishment to make them moral.

CWL is an obvious hypocrite, and he doesn’t like me pointing this out. That is why he acts like such a crying whiney little loser when he addresses me.

I am afraid you are misrepresenting my position Franko. I do think that the threat of punishment is necessary - not for all but for those few people who actually believe that such threat is necessary for acting moral, i.e. those who would themselves act immoral but for the threat of punishment. Intrestingly enough, you seem to fit nicely into this category yourself, my little juvenile delinquent. From your own reasoning it would indeed appear that you are capable of any crime whatsoever - just as long as you know you can get away with it. Why is punishment so important for you? Afraid of your own criminal urges, hmmm?

However, most people, like myself, choose to behave morally for other reasons. Your theory of "Perceived Maximum Benefit" certainly describes part of the story, another reason is the intrinsic empathy towards other human beings we have inherited through evolution.

To pick up on what Tricky is saying in his latest post to you, a better method of influencing a person for good is teaching him to tap into this empathy. Most modern penal systems recognize this and therefore rehabilitation often constitutes a part of the "punishment". There are some (very rare) cases of mentally disturbed individuals who lack the ability to experience empathy (sociopaths). Interestingly enough such people are not deterred by any threat of punishment. This in itself constitutes a good indication that intrinsic empathy is a much more important ingredient in behaving moral than the threat of punishment.

 

[Checkmite]

No, it is your algorithm intrinsically attempting to do what it is programmed to do, and it is Her Superior algorithm intrinsically supplying the required inputs and transmitting the required outputs. Fate.

Well then, Franko, if I am "intrinsically bad", that's the Programmer's fault for making me that way, isn't it?

Attending School and getting a divorce aren’t actions?

Sure they are...but you weren't talking about "attending school", you were talking about "which school I attended", which isn't an action, it's a descriptor. And I'm not saying that "no action is real unless I have decided it", I said "I'm not responsible for an action that I did not choose". In other words, it's not my responsibility that I went to school on base rather than off base, for example, because the choice wasn't mine.

Let me ask you this, suppose you are driving home today, and some drunk crosses the center line, and collides with you head on at high speed? Didn’t YOU decide to take that particular route home? Why did you decide to leave work when you did? If you had waited another 10 or 15 minutes that drunk would have killed someone else (or maybe no one at all)!

Are you saying that you won’t suffer any consequences from this event?

Just what are you saying Joshua?

I'm not talking about consequences here, I'm talking about responsibility. I didn't get drunk and hit me while driving down the road, so although the drunk driver's decision certainly affects me, I can't be held responsible for it. Just like in the above scenario, where the regulations involving schooling of dependents on base certainly affected where I went to school, but I didn't make the regulations - they aren't my fault.

Imagine you are sitting around for eternity, doing absolutely nothing … then one day, I come to you and ask if you want to play D&D. Now regardless of what you think of D&D compared to doing nothing for eternity, D&D is loads of fun. So you start playing D&D … question is are you grateful to me for giving you the opportunity to play, or would you rather be sitting back in the void doing NOTHING?

I would be extremely grateful.

But here's the problem again, Franko. The scenario you present above simply doesn't reflect what you tell us about determinism and Fate, and our "intrinsic nature". A more accurate analogy would be me sitting in the void doing nothing, when suddenly I'm set upon from behind, gagged, and reduced to a 1-inch tall figurine on a gameboard whose rules I don't understand. I'm controlled by some "player/algorithm" I can't see, and some "DM" who throws monsters at me. I want to run away from the monsters but I can't, because my "algorithm" is programmed to aggressively attack; so I'm forced to more or less "watch" helplessly as my body is moved like a stringed marionette at the whim of this "algorithm" and "DM". No thanks, I'll stay in the void and make up my own game.

What is Fate forcing you to do? You are an Algorithm, we are watching how you behave. If we like you, if we think you are a useful program, then maybe we’ll keep you. But if you are a bad program (like a computer virus), then we’ll purge you from the system, and reclaim any Energy we’ve added to you.

OK, first of all, who is this "we", Mr. Algorithm? You're stuck on the exact same plane as I am, so until you "die" and are judged "more efficient" or what have you, we're equals my friend.

Secondly, after so many faulty algorithms, why haven't "you guys" fired that obviously incompetent Programmer? I realize that since you've reduced me to nothing but a line of code I have no rights, real or imagined - but you've got to do something about that Jerk-off behind the Visual G(raviton)++ IDE, he's definitely overpaid.

Hey what do you want me to tell you? Everybody wants to be popular, everyone wants to be loved and adored. The problem is that a lot of people just aren’t willing to do what it takes. It’s hard work making and keeping friends. Well … at least it is if you don’t know what you are doing.

Nobody "wants" to do anything, because there is no free will. You hang out with who you are programmed to hang out with. If the Incompetent Programmer has programmed you to hang out with the @$$hole, then you will...what you think you "want" is meaningless.

You want friends? You want my advice? Be more of an Optimist. No one wants to hang out with a pessimist. Not for very long anyway.

If find that people are more receptive if you remain tolerant of those who don't always agree with you, as opposed to calling them names or telling them what they believe even when they protest your misrepresentation of them. It also helps when you let them know you recognize them as equal human beings, rather than trying to tell them they're nothing but computer programs.

 

[Franko]

CWL:

I do think that the threat of punishment is necessary - not for all but for those few people who actually believe that such threat is necessary for acting moral, i.e. those who would themselves act immoral but for the threat of punishment.

I’ll guess You’ll naturally be the One who gets to decide who “those people” are?

Why is punishment so important for you? Afraid of your own criminal urges, hmmm?

You are an imbecile CWL. A person who believes that his Goddess is always watching doesn’t step out of line by acting immorally.

a better method of influencing a person for good is teaching him to tap into this empathy. Most modern penal systems recognize this and therefore rehabilitation often constitutes a part of the "punishment". There are some (very rare) cases of mentally disturbed individuals who lack the ability to experience empathy (sociopaths). Interestingly enough such people are not deterred by any threat of punishment. This in itself constitutes a good indication that intrinsic empathy is a much more important ingredient in behaving moral than the threat of punishment.

So suddenly you are reversing your position 180 degrees and conceding that Rewards and punishment are necessary for conditioning moral behavior and honesty in individuals? I wonder where the conditioning went wrong on You CWL?

 

[The Fool]

You are an imbecile CWL. A person who believes that his Goddess is always watching doesn’t step out of line by acting immorally.

So Franko...The Goddess is watching you? You don't step out of line by acting immorally? Is it moral to abuse people on a web forum?
I've got some BAAAAAAAD news for you Catholic Heretic. You are going to burn in hell. You were Baptised Catholic and will burn as a goddess worshiping heretic....Fires of hell franko...they are waiting for you.

 

[CWL]

I’ll guess You’ll naturally be the One who gets to decide who “those people” are?

You actually never read the posts you are replying to, do you?

People who commit criminal offenses should generally be punished. What I am saying is that the threat of punishment is not necessary for all people. That is not saying it should not apply to all people. We should all be equal under the Law.

You are an imbecile CWL. A person who believes that his Goddess is always watching doesn’t step out of line by acting immorally.

Must be kind of scary having someone "always watching you". Should we add schizophrenia to the diagnosis or do we stick with just paranoia?

Seriously Franko, why do you feel the need to be "watched"? Afraid of what you would do otherwise?

So suddenly you are reversing your position 180 degrees and conceding that Rewards and punishment are necessary for conditioning moral behavior and honesty in individuals? I wonder where the conditioning went wrong on You CWL?

What leads you to assume that I have "reversed my position 180 degrees"? Did you ever understand my position? I think not. You are clearly not interested in any other thinking besides your own. Well, Frankster, I have news for you. A skeptic is prepared to accept that his thinking may be flawed - that is in fact the whole point of skepticism. But of course, your Lexicon has probably got the term "skeptic" defined as "someone who does not contradict Franko".