Logical? Deism.

[Franko]

It very much depends on whether you are saying fate is something that you create for yourself by your own actions in the present or whether those actions themselves are predetermined by fate since the beginning of time.

Obviously what I did today was based on what I did yesterday, so I would say that it is obviously predetermined. (what happened to your “Infinity” all of the sudden???)

So Frank, which is it?

Was everything fatalistically predetermined at the beginning of time? (no karma)

The fact that everything is determined is Karma. If things just happened randomly as You and the other A-Theists want to suggest, then how in the Hell could there be Karma?!?!

Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)

If the reaction occurs or doesn’t occur based on random unpredictably magical chance, than that isn’t Karma Elephant, that is chaos – that’s insanity.

Or is the future fatalistically determined by the present. (karma)

'fate' can mean both.

One day the present will be the past.

 

[Guest]

Farnk :

Well that was a total failure to answer the question.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Frank, which is it?

Was everything fatalistically predetermined at the beginning of time? (no karma)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The fact that everything is determined is Karma. If things just happened randomly as You and the other A-Theists want to suggest, then how in the Hell could there be Karma?!?!

Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)

If the reaction occurs or doesn’t occur based on random unpredictably magical chance, than that isn’t Karma Elephant, that is chaos – that’s insanity.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or is the future fatalistically determined by the present. (karma)

'fate' can mean both.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



One day the present will be the past.

Any chance you might attempt to actually answer the question, Frank?

Was everything predetermined at the beginning of time, or is the future merely determined by the present. There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference. In the former case everything I ever do was completely predetermined, in the latter I am determining my own fate with my own decisions. Your position has always been ambigious. Your utter failure to give me a straight answer to a very simple question that is right at the heart of your own 'philosophy' speaks volumes.

Do you actually know what you believe?

If so, why not just answer the question?

 

[Guest]

Just to elaborate a bit...

If there is really no free will then why not just say that everything was predetermined at the begining of time?

Why dodge the question, Frannie?

And if everything wasn't predetermined at the beginning of time then there must be free will (or non-fatalistic randomness), yes?

It really is very simple.

 

[hammegk]

Was everything predetermined at the beginning of time, or is the future merely determined by the present. There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference. .... a very simple question .....

If that question is "simple", what question would you deem "difficult"?

 

[Guest]

If that question is "simple", what question would you deem "difficult"?

It is a very difficult question. But it shouldn't be hard for Franchesca to tell us what he believes, since he rants on unendingly about fate and free will. Either he believes everything was predetermined or he doesn't. Personally I think he knows perfectly well that it wasn't, but won't say so because it blows a hole in his pronouncement that there is no free will.

edited .....

From the POV of consciousness there is no time. It is always NOW, and always has been. From the POV of consciousness there was no beginning and there is no end. So how can everything have been predetermined at a non-existent begining if time?

... And Frannie is an idealist.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

The A-Theists take me a lot more serious then they let on. Their actions (constantly starting threads about me, following me around like teenage girls chasing one of the Beetles, and attempting to get me Banned for daring to be skeptical of the religion of A-Theism) speak far louder than their words. I use the A-Theists to make my point, but it's not the A-Theists that I am interested in. For the most part the A-Theists on this forum are lost causes. They've already ceased to exist, it's just that they don't realize it yet (A-Theists have very poor perception) ...

Sure they do Franko. I mean who wouldn't take a person seriously who's labeled himself and his declared friend the forces of light and his A-theist(?) the legion of darkness....no demonization/self-rightousness there. *yawn*

 

[Franko]

Elephant:
Any chance you might attempt to actually answer the question, Frank?

Was everything predetermined at the beginning of time, or is the future merely determined by the present?

Jesus Christ Elephant! – You are accusing ME of not answering a question! You really are clueless on this Karma business – aren’t you?

Did you even read my last post, or did you decide that since I am merely a figment of your imagination you didn’t really need to?

Franko (previous post):
Obviously what I did today was based on what I did yesterday, so I would say that it is obviously predetermined. (what happened to your “Infinity” all of the sudden???)

Yeah, and I don’t know if you have ever heard me mention this or not before ( ), but I have also stated:

Atoms obey The Laws of Physics (TLOP).
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!

… but I realize that you A-Theists are a little slow.


[Hey Ele-pants, I have a simple question for YOU. How come when I push and you start getting all frantic you start acting more and more like an A-Theist Fool?]

 

[The Fool]

I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!

Franko assures us the following statements are NOT contradictory. The reason they are not contradictory is, unfortunately, a trade secret of the "Logical Deist" and he is "Physically prevented" from telling us.....

"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"
"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"
"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"
"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"
"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"
"I am a Fatalist, there is no “free will”!"
"You do get one free will choice"

Come on frank, you can tell me the secret, I won't tell anyone.



Its all just Contradiction backed up by argumentum ad nauseum.
Throw in Strawmen and the ability to Ignore what people explain to you and you have a pretty good summary of your entire contribution to this forum.

The Cable technician attempts to argue Physics, Religion and Philosophy with the help of some paperback self help books....
Tell me the atoms story again frank, I'm having trouble sleeping.

 

[Franko]

How come when I push and you start getting all frantic you start acting more and more like an A-Theist Fool?

Da (A-Theist) Fool:

Franko assures us the following statements are NOT contradictory. The reason they are not contradictory is, unfortunately, a trade secret of the "Logical Deist" and he is "Physically prevented" from telling us.....

Hehehe … it’s so easy to make you dance monkey-boy.

You haven’t been following me around nearly enough lately my little shadow. Did I say we were done? Did I grant you my permission to leave???

Listen Fool-li-kins, why don’t you just skip the foreplay tonight and hop directly ahead to the point where you dedicate another thread in my homage.

 

[CWL]

I asked Franko/Wraith:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) What are the empirical observations which lead you to the conclusion that there is a benevolent supreme being?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Franko/Wraith answered:

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey TLOP.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

In the same way that YOU are more complex and conscious then CAR; TLOP is more complex and conscious then YOU.

I further asked:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) If the answer to 1) is "Fate"; what are the empirical observations which lead you to the conclusion that there is something called "Fate" and how do you define it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Franko/Wraith answered:

Fate (or Karma [same difference]) is part of the equation:

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TLOP).
You are made of Atoms.
You obey TLOP.

That’s Fate.

You didn’t get to choose your parents, your gender, the Time or place of your birth. These things are the fundamental elements that made YOU who YOU are (your DNA, your genetics, your environment). Since the moment you were born, all of your actions are simply the inevitable result of a long unbroken chain of cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect, stretching back to at least as far as the moment of the “Big Bang” and the primordial conditions known as The Initial State. Simply stated, all of your actions are determined solely and entirely by your past experiences, and the Laws of Physics.

Okely-dokely.

We now know that Franko/Wraith holds that (his very own version of) cause and effect is the sole (but unrefutable) evidence of:

1) the existence of a "benevolent supreme being"; and
2) the existence of "Fate".

You heard it here first. That's all there is folks. Nothing more to see.

No matter how much you badger Franko/Wraith for further elaborations or explanations you will not get them. This horse is clearly dead as a door nail, no point in beating it any more.

Perhaps we can now move on to discuss matters of greater interest in the R&P Section?

 

[Franko]

Okely-dokely.

We now know that CWL/Upchimp/Titanpout/Elephant/De-Bungler/Tricky/Evildave/Thaifoodken/Pixypants/Stimpson/Vicky D./MRC/Fool/ETC/ETC … holds that (his very own version of [magical]) cause and effect (magical, because sometimes things just happen for no reason) is the sole (but unrefutable) evidence of:

1) the Universe and all existence is due to a "non-benevolent, non-conscious, magical singularity escaping, life accidentally creating, supernaturally appearing out of no-where, arcane wonder force which is DEFINITELY and Unequivocally not more conscious or complex then the insects "it" created by “accident”. (of course you’ll have to take CWL’s word on this )
2) the existence of magical "Free Willy" super-powers (which cannot be demonstrated).

You heard it here first. That's all there is folks. Nothing more to see.

No matter how much you badger CWL/Upchimp/Titanpout/Elephant/De-Bungler/Tricky/Evildave/Thaifoodken/Pixypants/Stimpson/Vicky D./MRC/Fool/ETC/ETC for further elaborations or explanations you will not get them. This horse is clearly dead as a door nail, no point in beating it any more.

Perhaps we can now move on to discuss matters of greater interest in the R&P Section?

(Like starting up more threads dedicated to Me!!! ... or like putting Me on your IGNORE list, and then going on and on about it for days like a lovesick little school girl, and then calling the boy up who you are in love with, but hanging up when he answers the phone ...)

 

[CWL]

Wow... I wonder what could have caused that little tantrum...

 

[thaiboxerken]

1) the Universe and all existence is due to a "non-benevolent, non-conscious, magical singularity escaping, life accidentally creating, supernaturally appearing out of no-where, arcane wonder force which is DEFINITELY and Unequivocally not more conscious or complex then the insects "it" created by “accident”. (of course you’ll have to take CWL’s word on this )

No, I simply don't believe that your god created the universe, I do not know how the universe started or if it ever didn't exist.. but neither do you. It is evident that life on earth started with abiogenesis, but as to why that happened, I don't know.. and neither do you.


2) the existence of magical "Free Willy" super-powers (which cannot be demonstrated).

I don't believe in free will. Sorry, your strawman cannot touch me.
[/B]

 

[thaiboxerken]

Wow... I wonder what could have caused that little tantrum...

Probably picked up something particularly nasty in someone's garbage. If I was a garbage man, I'd be pissed off at the world too.

 

[Franko]

Wow... I wonder what could have caused that little tantrum...

Yo CWL … you have heard of caller id – haven’t you? Stop calling me and hanging up Bitch!

Thaifoodkenny:
Probably picked up something particularly nasty in someone's garbage. If I was a garbage man, I'd be pissed off at the world too.

Actually (and I’ve said this many times before) if you like being a garbage-man, then it is the best job in the Omniverse. Besides, finding something particularly nasty that someone’s tossed out is one of the perks of the occupation, not one of it’s hazards.

 

[wraith]

Gosh golly. There's not a universal height threshold. It is relative. That is the principle of fuzzy logic. I'm glad you finally understand.

?
How is the logic "fuzzy"??

If I see something that I would classify as being "tall" then it is "tall"

It is True

 

[wraith]

So whose side of the debate do you think that statement supports, Franko-Wraith?

It is you who believe the Universe is governed by Aristotlean binary logic!

huh?

 

[wraith]

Wow... I wonder what could have caused that little tantrum...

tantrum?

you and your crew's balls just got blown off

 

[CWL]

Yo CWL … you have heard of caller id – haven’t you? Stop calling me and hanging up Bitch!

Frankowraith,

I don't need to "call you". Nobody does. You are doing a fine job at demonstrating how mundane your "revolutionary theories" really are all by yourself. I don't need to do it for you.

BTW, I have started a new thread on the subject of causation as evidence of God's existence. Just so you don't get any big ideas it is not directed towards you, and I do not expect you to make any valuable contribution. You believe causation is proof of God (and refuse to present any explanations or elaborations as to why). Your opinion is noted, you do not need to state it again.

However, please do feel free to surprise me by providing rational arguments for your stance in a mature and polite manner. That, on the other hand would be most welcome.

 

[Franko]

CWL,

I don't need to "call you". Nobody does.

Well none of you A-theist need to call, you already have the “superior” metaphysical belief system.

Which is why I am so curious about your repeated Troll-like behavior (following me around constantly, asking the same question over and over, putting me on your IGNORE list and then dedicating thread after thread in my honor)?

You seem obsessed with me CWL and I am not the first person to mention this? What gives?

You are doing a fine job at demonstrating how mundane your "revolutionary theories" really are all by yourself. I don't need to do it for you.

Then why are you unable to resist?

Perhaps you aren’t as eager to cease to exist as you let on?

Or perhaps you don’t have any “free will” and me, and my Goddess are controlling your every action just like I have been claiming?

BTW, I have started a new thread on the subject of causation as evidence of God's existence. Just so you don't get any big ideas it is not directed towards you, and I do not expect you to make any valuable contribution. You believe causation is proof of God (and refuse to present any explanations or elaborations as to why). Your opinion is noted, you do not need to state it again.

Thanks.

I don’t suppose you’ll be explaining how it is “logical” that the universe magically appeared out of nothing, and then escaped an inescapable singularity – will you?

However, please do feel free to surprise me by providing rational arguments for your stance in a mature and polite manner. That, on the other hand would be most welcome.

Don’t blame me because you didn’t imagine me with better manners. I’m your figment after all …