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Judge overturns California assault weapons ban

The Don said:
Unless I'm mistaken (and I might very well be :o), suicides aren't treated as homicides by the US legal system.
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Depends, Assisted Suicides and Attempted Suidices certainly can be dealt with as Homicides and attempted Homicides, and some Homicides aren't dealt with by the Legal System at all US or otherwise. Suicides generally aren't prosecuted if successful, for obvious reasons.

A Homicide is merely the killing of a human by a human. It can accidental, or intentional. It can be justified or not. It can be of another human, or self-inflicted.

Accidental Death caused by a person, Manslaughter, Killing in Self defense, Murder, and Suicide are all forms of Homicide, but obviously have different legal ramifications.

I suspect that you were really meaning to suggest that gun murders left out a large number of gun deaths, rather than gun homicides.
 
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PhantomWolf said:
Depends, Assisted Suicides and Attempted Suidices certainly can be dealt with as Homicides and attempted Homicides
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Do you have any examples of a US court trying an attempted suicide as an attempted homicide?

I can see an assisted suicide being tried as a homicide, on the theory that the assistant was trying to get the victim killed. The assistant can try to pass it off as a suicide, but the prosecutor doesn't have to play that game if they don't want to.

But I think that both legally and culturally, everybody tends to agree that suicides and homicides are morally and ethically distinct crimes, even though they both involve intentionally ending a human life.
 
I think how this comes up is in interpreting statistics, being aware of whether they are included in an offered figure.
 
Ethan Thane Athen said:
That's one of the most bizarre arguments I've ever heard....I assume you also disregarded the homicides from major cities in comparison countries? I suspect if you excluded 7 UK cities you'd have a homicide rate approaching zero!
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The point is that the problem is not country wide gun deaths, nor state wide gun deaths. The problem is inner city. Gun ownership is probably homogenous across the country (stats?) , but gun homicides are nearly all inner city. Which is proof that guns don't cause murder any more than my keyboard causes typographic anomalies. Fix the societal problems and the homicide rate will plummet. No need to interfere with my hobby.

And re: "assault weapons", blunt objects kill more people. I must be a violent person- I don't own any assault weapons, but I own dozens of hammers.
 
gnome said:
I think how this comes up is in interpreting statistics, being aware of whether they are included in an offered figure.
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Seems like the reasonable approach to that question would be to examine the statistical data and methodology on a case by case basis. Not try to claim some sort of broad equivalence in criminal law. PW seems to be trying to get as far away from the actual discussion as he possibly can, without ending up in some entirely unrelated thread.
 
casebro said:
The point is that the problem is not country wide gun deaths, nor state wide gun deaths. The problem is inner city. Gun ownership is probably homogenous across the country (stats?) , but gun homicides are nearly all inner city. Which is proof that guns don't cause murder any more than my keyboard causes typographic anomalies. Fix the societal problems and the homicide rate will plummet. No need to interfere with my hobby.

And re: "assault weapons", blunt objects kill more people. I must be a violent person- I don't own any assault weapons, but I own dozens of hammers.
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Does that still hold up per capita? I mean, I'm sure population density plays a part in the phenomenon itself, but to at least some extent the numbers are higher in cities simply because there's more people there, and on an "incidents per people" basis, even if it were equal across the board there'd be a higher raw count inside cities.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
He said current California legislation banned "fairly ordinary, popular, modern rifles".
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Ordinary people do ****** up things when ****** up things become ordinary.

Originalists are all about state and local laws. Federalism! And now they're perfectly OK with an unelected federal judge thwarting a state law. Doubly ironic that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to promote "the security of a free State." We're all incorporationists now.
 
theprestige said:
Do you have any examples of a US court trying an attempted suicide as an attempted homicide?
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Well, no case is prosecuted as an "Attempted Homicide" just as no court ever has a case where they prosecute "Homicide." That would be like prosecuting someone for "Traffic Violations" or "Violent Crime."

Homicide is a category, and under the legal category, some homicides are not actually even crimes. For instance, no one ever gets prosecuted for a Justifiable Homicide either.

However, have people in the US been prosecuted for Attempted Suicide? Yes. Up until the 1960s, it was considered a felony offense. Since the late 1960's states have been recognizing that it should not be considered a crime, but as recently as 2018 a Maryland Court, one of the last two States to retain such legislation, sentenced a man to a three-year suspended sentence and two years of probation.
 
I'm struggling to figure out how the Left has gotten as pro-revolution as it has in the last few years and remained anti-gun.

Or is the glorious progressive revolution really going to be thrown soup cans and nothing else?
 
It's weird isn't it? I'm equally struggling to see how the far right has gotten so anti-government and pro-police at the same time.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
I'm struggling to figure out how the Left has gotten as pro-revolution as it has in the last few years and remained anti-gun.

Or is the glorious progressive revolution really going to be thrown soup cans and nothing else?
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Probably because the Left has enough intellect to understand that even as Pro-revolutionary as they want to be, no amount of arms will actually overturn a US Government that has the military and police with it.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Well, no case is prosecuted as an "Attempted Homicide" just as no court ever has a case where they prosecute "Homicide." That would be like prosecuting someone for "Traffic Violations" or "Violent Crime."

Homicide is a category, and under the legal category, some homicides are not actually even crimes. For instance, no one ever gets prosecuted for a Justifiable Homicide either.

However, have people in the US been prosecuted for Attempted Suicide? Yes. Up until the 1960s, it was considered a felony offense. Since the late 1960's states have been recognizing that it should not be considered a crime, but as recently as 2018 a Maryland Court, one of the last two States to retain such legislation, sentenced a man to a three-year suspended sentence and two years of probation.
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They get prosecuted for attempted suicide. Not attempted murder or attempted manslaughter or whatever. What exactly is the point of your argument? You seem to be trying to erase a useful conceptual distinctin between homicide and suicide.
 
casebro said:
The point is that the problem is not country wide gun deaths, nor state wide gun deaths. The problem is inner city. Gun ownership is probably homogenous across the country (stats?) , but gun homicides are nearly all inner city. Which is proof that guns don't cause murder any more than my keyboard causes typographic anomalies. Fix the societal problems and the homicide rate will plummet. No need to interfere with my hobby.

And re: "assault weapons", blunt objects kill more people. I must be a violent person- I don't own any assault weapons, but I own dozens of hammers.
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Yes stats are important and they prove you wrong.

https://johnjayrec.nyc/2018/05/24/databit201801/

Lots of stats here showing that gun deaths are not even close to a uniquely urban problem.

Similarly, the highest gun homicide rate among Texas counties was in Waller County with a population of 43,205, 38 percent urban. Waller County’s firearm homicide rate was 7.2 per 100,000—higher than the very urban counties of Harris and Dallas (6.4 and 5.8 per 100,000, respectively).
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theprestige said:
They get prosecuted for attempted suicide. Not attempted murder or attempted manslaughter or whatever. What exactly is the point of your argument? You seem to be trying to erase a useful conceptual distinctin between homicide and suicide.
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You seem to be missing the point, murder, manslaughter, and suicide are all forms of homicide. Homicide is the set of killings of a human by a human.

You might as well say "You seem to be trying to erase a useful conceptual distinction between Colour and Red" because you are essentially arguing that because Blue is not Yellow or Red, it's not a colour.
 
PhantomWolf said:
You seem to be missing the point, murder, manslaughter, and suicide are all forms of homicide. Homicide is the set of killings of a human by a human.

You might as well say "You seem to be trying to erase a useful conceptual distinction between Colour and Red" because you are essentially arguing that because Blue is not Yellow or Red, it's not a colour.
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I'm not missing the point, I'm trying to figure out what relevance or interest it has in this discussion. We're talking about red vs blue, and you're insisting we need to acknowledge they're both colors.

Also, I think your usage of "homicide" is a bit doctrinaire. It seems like a good example of "technically correct is the worst kind of correct". Legally and colloquially, the word is generally used to indicate something distinct from suicide.
 
mgidm86 said:
Yes stats are important and they prove you wrong.

https://johnjayrec.nyc/2018/05/24/databit201801/

Lots of stats here showing that gun deaths are not even close to a uniquely urban problem.
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From your link: In 2017, the Brennan Center at New York University School of Law published a review of crime statistics that focused on rates of crime and violence in the “30 largest American cities.” Intentional or not, the report reinforced the idea that violence is concentrated in cities.

From wiki: "Waller County is included in the Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area." Of course it isn't "inner city", it's across a county line. Hmmm, that chart looks at counties, not cities. Nor "metropolitan areas".

Three homicides n Waller Texas? vs Baltimore, 150? Hahahaha
 
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