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Judge overturns California assault weapons ban

You can find examples from both sides of the coin, but if you disregard the homicides in 7 US cities, USA has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. In places where life is cheap, umm, well, life is cheap.

Aha, that old chestnut - disregard the worst examples and the stats look better.

Sorry, but that's a load of crap and you know it. Its like drawing a line above the Titanic or Tenerife and working upwards. You could claim the the 20th Century was very peaceful if you disregard WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam!!
 
Aha, that old chestnut - disregard the worst examples and the stats look better.

Sorry, but that's a load of crap and you know it. Its like drawing a line above the Titanic or Tenerife and working upwards. You could claim the the 20th Century was very peaceful if you disregard WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam!!

There is something to be said for heterogeneity versus homogeneity.
 
Forgive my ignorance with US law, and maybe a question I should put in the US politics sub thread, but why does one federal judges decision actually make a big deal?

Presumably they can't actually change the State law and the others can just tell him/her to pull their head in.

Because if one judge can cause more grief than that more broadly it is a bit stupid.
 
Forgive my ignorance with US law, and maybe a question I should put in the US politics sub thread, but why does one federal judges decision actually make a big deal?

Presumably they can't actually change the State law and the others can just tell him/her to pull their head in.

Because if one judge can cause more grief than that more broadly it is a bit stupid.

The judge has said that State law was in conflict with the constitution. That sort of does change the state law. The law may still be on the books, but the state is now prevented from enforcing it due to the primacy of the U.S. constitution over state constitutions.

Mind you, this isn't just any old judge, its a fairly high level federal judge.

That said, this will be appealed, and probably appealed again. Either action could result in withdrawing the injunction and allowing the state to enforce the law again even as the appeal continues.
 
The judge has said that State law was in conflict with the constitution. That sort of does change the state law. The law may still be on the books, but the state is now prevented from enforcing it due to the primacy of the U.S. constitution over state constitutions.

Mind you, this isn't just any old judge, its a fairly high level federal judge.

That said, this will be appealed, and probably appealed again. Either action could result in withdrawing the injunction and allowing the state to enforce the law again even as the appeal continues.

:thumbsup:

Thanks.

Far out. So one judge can put a stop to enforcing a law.

Presumably meaning weirdos there can suddenly buy them in the interim.

Sorry, but that is a bit nuts.
 
:thumbsup:

Thanks.

Far out. So one judge can put a stop to enforcing a law.

Presumably meaning weirdos there can suddenly buy them in the interim.

Sorry, but that is a bit nuts.

Perhaps now you can begin to understand why Moscow Mitch was so hell-bent on getting as many conservative judges on the Federal benches as he could. By stacking the Federal benches, the Republicans can make it much more difficult for the Democrats to enact progressive measures after they lose power.
 
Note: The judge has stayed the ruling for 30 days to allow for appeals. So no, assault weapons are still not legal in Calif. It will be appealed. The question is whether the judge's ruling will be upheld. Might well work its way up to the Supreme Court.
 
This argument has been put forward many many times but here it goes again. If law abiding citizens are not allowed to own guns whats to stop criminals from getting weapons on the black market and committing a crime using said illegal weapons? Anti gun laws disarm the law abiding citizens and quite frankly make things easier for criminals to rob them.
Yeah, that's why I carry an AR-15 with me wherever I go, because you never know when a criminal might try to rob you.

If everybody did the same as me then all the guns would be owned by law abiding citizens and criminals wouldn't be able to get them. But if they took away our guns, guns would be everywhere and criminals would have no trouble getting them!
 
Note: The judge has stayed the ruling for 30 days to allow for appeals. So no, assault weapons are still not legal in Calif. It will be appealed. The question is whether the judge's ruling will be upheld. Might well work its way up to the Supreme Court.

Sorry, but still don't get that.

One idiot gets to be a federal judge and any decisions they make can have to go to the supreme court?
 
Us gun rights advocates in California call him "Saint Benitez".

The reality is that "assault rifles" are used in an infinitesimal number of deaths. But fraidy-cat Democrats need to feel protected. And previous SCOTUS rulings allow civilians whatever arms are used by individual soldiers. Magazine fed semi-automatic weapons have been allowed for at least 100 years.

You know Rule 1 of politics- Keep the people scared so they will vote for YOU to lead them to safety. The Dem pols want votes, they don't actually care about safety. The Repubs want us scared that the Dems will take our guns, they want our votes too. I don't think either side wants to kill their cash cow by settling the issue. It's like illegal immigration...

Yet the right to bear swords*, battle-axes, halberds etc. Is infringed. Yet these would have been standard arms for soldiers at the time the constitution was written, and used by civilians for personal defence.

The justification in the constitution seems to be that it is to defend the people against the government, not other people even criminals. The argument for self defence against criminals may be reasonable but not one made for the second amendment. Most criminals arms come from stealing from 'civilians'. If there were fewer 'civilian' arms and those were better secured criminals would have fewer arms.

In reality the greatest number of firearm deaths are not from criminals, but from ourselves; suicide. There is good evidence that reducing access to an immediately available method of suicide e.g. guns reduces suicides. People do not just commit suicide another way. As a gun owner the gun that is most likely to kill you or a member of your family is your gun. Even if you did nothing about guns in the hands of criminals, or homicide by gun, reducing gun ownership would save lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

* I know this because it says so in 'Glory Road' one of my favourite books as a teen, which I noted was being read in Mythic Quest.
 
Not sure against what material or what rounds are compared.

In all tests I've seen against flak jackets, the heavy helmets the Speznaz use, etc, a 5.56mm round went straight through stuff that barely got slightly dented by a 9mm or even a .357 Magnum. As in, in one heavy helmet test, it also put a hole out the back of it.

E.g., in the EU VPAM standard, stopping a round-nose 9x19mm is PM2 class, while stopping 5.56×45mm is PM7. That's actually one up from the PM6 needed to stop mild steel core 7.62×39mm. The same kind of different scale applies to UK standards, US Army standards, etc.

Or going to the round specs, common 5.56mm rounds rated against 12mm of steel at 100m, whereas for 9mm even the PBP 9×19mm overpressure round only goes through 8mm at 10m. And yes, that's not a typo. There's actually one zero missing in the latter. The 5.56mm round still has VASTLY more penetration at 100m than some of the best 9mm rounds have at 10m.

I.e., it's not just what penetration it has at point blank range. The longer rifle round maintain the potential to go through two layers of window pane and still be lethal over a much longer distance. Whereas for a 9mm it might happen if some guy shoots and misses from across a suburban street, for a 5.56mm the same holds true for a guy at half a kilometre away.

It also doesn't help the comparison that at least in the USA, you're probably more likely to be shot at with a .45 ACP than with a 9mm. Americans seem to like 'em big. But the slower speed of a .45 ACP bullet also means it's got a LOT less penetration.

It also doesn't help that unless the one shooting a 9 mil is a soldier in the course of duty, they probably will have JHP loaded, which has MUCH less penetration. It's also MUCH less likely to be an overpressure round (the NATO 9mm round is essentially a +P Parabellum.) Many of the cheaper civillian weapons don't even have the barrel rated to (safely) shoot a +P round.

By way of comparison, from stuff like an AK for example, they're just as likely to have loaded whatever was cheaper, which may actually be a steel core bullet.


Now whether that's reason enough to forbid one or the other, you can make up your own mind. But claiming that the pistol round has more penetration than the rifle one is... misleading at best. It might be true in some niche cases, but it's very far from being true in most cases.


A 5.56 will start to tumble after the first barrier.
One of the deficiencies of the round is it's barrier penetration.

Flak jackets can't be compared to walling.
Steel plate cannot be compared to walling.

At usual home defence ranges with the usual carbine length AR with the standard 55 grain round against a 9mm with a 150 grain round the 9mm has greater penetration through walling and flesh.


.45 has less barrier penetration but is harder to shoot well unless you train a lot

9mm handguns outsell .45 by a wide margin. It is nowhere near as popular as it was a decade ago, it is seen as an 'enthusiasts' calibre now.

There is no doubt that a 5.56 is far more lethal over longer ranges.
This lethality is increased by the easier handling and big mag giving a higher rate of fire, hence the magazine restriction on ARs in Cali.

Part of the reason for some of the restrictions in Cali is because an AR looks 'dangerous'. All black and military.

A Ruger Mini 14 is a semi auto firing 5.56 rifle but it has a wooden stock and no separate pistol grip so doesn't look as scary as an AR. With a magazine restriction it meets all the requirements of the law unmodified.

At the end of the day though handguns are the danger weapon, they kill far more people than ARs
 
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Sorry, but still don't get that.

One idiot gets to be a federal judge and any decisions they make can have to go to the supreme court?

No, they can't make it go to the Supreme Court. First appeal will probably go to the circuit court. Appeals from that go to the Supreme Court.

District --> Circuit --> Supreme

Circuit and Supreme court can decline to hear cases appealed to them. Doing so means they uphold the lower court's ruling.

This will probably go to the Supreme Court. Three new judges there appointed by Trump, that was enough to really shift the balance of the court. Lots of motivation by conservatives to get some hot-button issues in front of them. Expect to see maybe a few other gun-control laws and abortion moving up to the SC as well. These things have all been litigated over and over again in the past, but they'll want to relitigate them now to see how the new court weighs in.
 
You can find examples from both sides of the coin, but if you disregard the homicides in 7 US cities, USA has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. In places where life is cheap, umm, well, life is cheap.

That's one of the most bizarre arguments I've ever heard....I assume you also disregarded the homicides from major cities in comparison countries? I suspect if you excluded 7 UK cities you'd have a homicide rate approaching zero!
 
Why are you only including homicide?

That leaves out a huge number of gun deaths.
 
Why are you only including homicide?

That leaves out a huge number of gun deaths.

There are gun deaths that aren't homicides? Well okay, I have heard of the very rare case where a dog stood on the trigger of a hunter's gun and shot him, but that wouldn't really make that much of a difference. I have always heard that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Do you have evidence of the contrary?
 
There are gun deaths that aren't homicides? Well okay, I have heard of the very rare case where a dog stood on the trigger of a hunter's gun and shot him, but that wouldn't really make that much of a difference. I have always heard that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Do you have evidence of the contrary?

IIRC around 2/3 of gun deaths in the US are suicides so the majority of gun deaths aren't homicides.
 
IIRC around 2/3 of gun deaths in the US are suicides so the majority of gun deaths aren't homicides.

You do realise that suicides are homicides, right? Well except those committed by non-humans.
 

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