JPs Boxcutter Derail thread

Regnad Kcin said:
a slender metal sheath containing a sliding receptacle which holds a single-edge razor blade. Once extended it would be a formidable weapon (not that the others mentioned aren't).
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I have a box of those at work (don't ask). The standard stanley style utility knife would have a slightly deeper cut than this style. however when closed this type is much harder to identify as a knife (the case is metal so on x-ray it should show mainly as a rectangular piece of metal, not very knife like.)

You can pull the handle out the back end, usually to change the single edge razor it holds. Using it this way would probably be better, but the blade corner would probably tend to snag on things. The angle of the stanley knife would keep it from snagging.

They probably carried a mix of knives in case some were found and turned away at security.
 
One thing to bear in mind, is these "knives" have a wide range...

I have several, from the tiny little palstic ones with a blade 1cm across or less, lightweight, and the blade snaps under any real pressure...

Right up to my Tajima knife (LC-650). It has a heavy solid handle, the blade is over an inch across, hideously sharp, very strong, and a good 4 inches long.

-Andrew
 
I posted this in the LC Thread, but it is pertinent to this discussion...


Another thing to consider with these terrorists...

Some of them, at least, were Osama's prize Mujahedeen. They are hard, hard men, with many years of experience fighting first the Soviet Union, then whoever they felt like fighting. These are the worst combination - extreme religious fanatics, and cold hard killers.

I have this absolutely fascinating, and somewhat disturbing book called "On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society" (by Lt Col. Dave Grossman). One of the things it talks about is the "wind of hate" - the psychological impact of being the subject of hostility (for most people even just confronting their boss about a raise at work is too confrontational). As an example, he cites research that indicates that the vast majority of serial killer victims offered so little resistance they "virtually assisted in their own murders".

When a screaming fantatic, 1000 yard-stare killer Jihadist terrorist takes over your plane, the "wind of hate" would be pretty significant. Most of the passengers would probably be so psychologically traumatised by the mere PRESENCE of the terrorists that they were incapable of action (then add knives and maybe a few people with slit throats to the equation...). That is what makes the actions of the passengers on United 93 so heroic - they overcame that wind of hate. (And lets be honest, could they have honestly believed they had a good chance of success?)
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-Andrew
 
kevin said:
I got into a debate with a guy about this a few days after 9/11. Basically it appears that people think knives/sharp things only hurt people by stabbing them, and that arteries are really deep in the body.

Slashing is way more dangerous than stabbing and there are a number of arteries close to the skin that even fairly shallow slashes can cut.

Just look at the number of suicides by slashing the wrists. And that's slower than the artery in the neck.
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The thing is that unless that slash hits the neck, the inside of the arm or the inside of the thigh, with a little stanley knife it's not going to be deep enough to make you bleed to death any time soon. Slashing movements are also easier to intercept, and harder to execute if someone's right on top of you.

There's a reason every dodgy self defence course and McDojo martial art teaches people to defend against swinging attacks and not against jabs. Swinging attacks have further to go and can be usefully blocked with a wide margin for error. A jab, especially one with a knife, covers a short distance very fast and has to be intercepted very precisely, which means in practise that almost nobody can do so.

I'm not running down the box cutter as an advantageous thing to have in your hand. It turns a touch into a slash, which is a powerful thing. It's still not as nasty as a stabbing blade though. My humble opinion.
 
Back when I was a medic in the army (1960s) we used to see a lot of razor cuts because straight razors were readily available and preferred by certain ethnic groups.
These attacks produced nasty-looking long slashes which were not particularly debilitating. Very little blood, and usually the injured party would walk into the dispensary on his own power.

On the other hand, I once witnessed a farmer slaughtering a calf with his little "stockman's" knife. (about a 2" blade) he lifted the critter's ear, and severed the carotid artery. The calf dropped like it had been shot.

So, it's a matter of technique; you have to know where and how to cut.

Those of us familiar with bladed weapon combat techniques know that the thrust is considered to be the killing blow; slashes are for disabling/disarming/creating openings.
However, in this scenario, we are not talking about knife combat. We are talking about a group of terrorists (who were also claiming to have a bomb, as I recall) grabbing a stewardess and probably summarily cutting her throat from behind to show the rest of the passengers what dreadful guys they were.
The vast majority of people have litte regard for combat, and would be unlikely to attack someone armed with any kind of bladed weapon, except as a last resort.
And that's where the hijackers had the advantage; no one (until the last plane) had any notion this would be anything other than a "routine" hijacking.
"Take us to Cuba!" or somesuch.
It was only when the actual purposes of the hijackers became apparent that resistance became an attractive alternative.

I'm a police officer, extensively trained in all manner "defensive tactics", and I would never consider going unarmed against a blade unless there was no other alternative.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
The thing is that unless that slash hits the neck, the inside of the arm or the inside of the thigh, with a little stanley knife it's not going to be deep enough to make you bleed to death any time soon. Slashing movements are also easier to intercept, and harder to execute if someone's right on top of you.
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if they picked the weapon soley on it's ability to kill then I would agree with you, however they also had to get them past security. Standard knives are fairly obvious on x-rays. Retracted box cutters not so much.

I think the fact that one plane did manage to defend itself is a good indicator that you're right about them not being great weapons. However I was just trying to point out that you CAN kill with them. Generally works best in manners of surprise, which they had.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
They aren't as deadly as some people here seem to be making out, because they can't stab. Unless they cut a major blood vessel near the surface, such as the ones in your neck, the wounds are superficial. I'd much rather face a box cutter than a knife if my life was on the line.
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I have just experimented with a Stanley knife. It can stab easy. Will penetrate 1 - 2 inches. Once in the attacker will have two choices - withdraw it or slash causing massive wounds. Stanley knifes are BLOODY SHARP (literally).
 
If you look into assasin handbooks (those of al-quidea and the old CIA one), you will find that weapons such as these are favoured as #2 on their list of best weapons. Being caught with a kitchen knife or a utility knife is much more explainable than a gun, they're also quite deadly in the hands of someone with proper anatomical knowledge :)
 
Stellafane said:
(4) He leaves himself open for some not-too-tightly-wrapped person who disagrees with him to come up brandishing a boxcutter and announce, "Laugh at this, sucker!" The resulting photos of Avery in soiled pants, on his knees begging for mercy, would probably stop the "truth" movement in its tracks.
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I'm seeing a scene from Mississippi Burning, in which the investigators start to play dirty and abduct one of the suspects, get a black FBI agent to pretend to be an equal rights extremist, and threaten to cut the suspect's genitals off ...

I just love that film.
 
Bumping this excellent thread for any fence-sitters who are dropping by.

Also, adding my own knife experience. I was held up by a boy (couldn't been older tha 13 or 14) with a pretty small penknife. He'd asked me for 20p for the phone and then showed me his knife and asked "for the rest". I gave him the 30p or so I had in my pocket and he ran off. Admitedly I'd been up early that morning working and was a bit dazed but I honestly had neither the time nor the exerience to assess the danger of the situation. As the cliche goes "it all happened so quickly".

Really you can't know for sure what you're going to do in these situations until you are in them.
 
not sure if anyone mentioned it, but the cutter they found in the apartment of one of th ehijackers (or maybe it was moussaui) was one of those break-away blade types, like this:

art-supply-20247006.jpg


where you can actually extend the blade to several inches, not sure if these kinds were used in the hijacking, but its a point to consider
 
Johnny Pixels said:
A lot of them don't believe that the phone calls made by passengers on that flight are real. Yes, they also dance on the graves of those heroic people that had a chance to fight back and took it.
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That, by the by is a perfect proof that there are no ghosts - cause if there were , those little asukers would never sleep for fear of the spirits.:mad:
 
Still, I've had my arm cut so badly by a shiny new boxcutter (blade extended) that I needed 10 stitches. I still haven't regained full "feeling" in the rest of my arm (and this was 8 years ago), so there was apparently some damage done there.

Conclusion: I wouldn't have been that cocky if someone started wielding a boxcutter. I think I'd run if it was a sturdier utility knife.
 
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