John Chang 'chi master'

JoeyDonuts said:
Uhh, what?

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it does.
Click to expand...

I meant that he wasn't the cause of it but that it still happened by God's hand coming down and zapping everyone. And you have no idea how serious I was when I said it.

Although actually what I should have said is that if he can't do this, then that doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but that he isn't the cause of it. I was just trying to wind him up for bringing up minutiae that really have no bearing on the argument. He knew that I was saying - I don't think it's magic.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, you weren't exactly clear about how "it" may "have happened" if he "wasn't able to do it."

Suddenly, I'm thinking of a scene from And Now For Something Completely Different...
 
Stray Cat said:
It's hardly a thorough critical scientific investigation into Chang's claims.
A $15 voltmeter from Radio Shack.
Click to expand...

What I mean is how are they missing his concealed device that is creating the charge.
 
Last edited:
somnum said:
How is he creating these charges and the scientists miss them?
Click to expand...

Obviously we can't tell. All we have is some simple footage, and therefore we're not privy to the context, the test protocol, the bias etc. We know nothing more than what we can see in a simple Youtube clip and perhaps some text offered by some observers.

However, you seem to be giving weight to the fact that 'scientists' miss the trickery. There is no special card given to you to state you now belong to a special science club. :) (if so, I didn't get mine)

'Scientist' is a broad term. A person who has an interest in the field can set up a test and claim they are practicing science. And they're not exactly lying. But it really doesn't mean much. What does matter is how they do their tests, not who they are.

Some people aren't all that aware of how easily we can be fooled. Magicians, for instance, make a craft of it. There are examples of magicians easily fooling self-proclaimed scientists simply because the latter don't know what to look out for.

A facetious way of putting it is that the universe rarely sets out to intentionally fool you, so scientists aren't the most suspicious of individuals. And there is some truth to that.

Athon
 
athon said:
Obviously we can't tell. All we have is some simple footage, and therefore we're not privy to the context, the test protocol, the bias etc. We know nothing more than what we can see in a simple Youtube clip and perhaps some text offered by some observers.

However, you seem to be giving weight to the fact that 'scientists' miss the trickery. There is no special card given to you to state you now belong to a special science club. :) (if so, I didn't get mine)

'Scientist' is a broad term. A person who has an interest in the field can set up a test and claim they are practicing science. And they're not exactly lying. But it really doesn't mean much. What does matter is how they do their tests, not who they are.

Some people aren't all that aware of how easily we can be fooled. Magicians, for instance, make a craft of it. There are examples of magicians easily fooling self-proclaimed scientists simply because the latter don't know what to look out for.

A facetious way of putting it is that the universe rarely sets out to intentionally fool you, so scientists aren't the most suspicious of individuals. And there is some truth to that.

Athon
Click to expand...

Sure, sounds very plausible. The extent of what we know is a metal detector. And I suppose we don't know how thorough it was. But a metal detector would have to find something capable of producing a charge, no? I assume that is why they wanted him to leave the premises.
 
somnum said:
Sure, sounds very plausible. The extent of what we know is a metal detector. And I suppose we don't know how thorough it was. But a metal detector would have to find something capable of producing a charge, no? I assume that is why they wanted him to leave the premises.
Click to expand...

With the right shoes and carpet anyone can create a charge. Just rub your feet slightly on the carpet and you can generate enough charge to zap people.

I used to do it all the time till I found out some people did not see the humor in it.



http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/static.htm

"You walk across the rug, reach for the doorknob and..........ZAP!!! You get a static shock."
 
JoeyDonuts said:
When I was taking Aikido I heard every rationalization in the book for the presence of "ki" or "chi" or "qi" or whatever you want to call it. Some say it's a "life force" that permeates every living thing, some say it's biomechanical processes, but in each case the practicioners of ki-based martial arts contend that this force can be manipulated and used by the practicioner for various effects.
They'll say that focusing it into your arms makes you hit harder. Concentrating it in your torso makes it invulnerable to harm.
Becoming zanshin makes it effortless to blend with your opponent's attack and "feel" what he's doing.

There are other explanations for these phenomena, and none of them are spiritual.

The fact that none of these so-called "ki" arts have managed to survive the crucible of MMA is a testament to their lack of utility. But yet, their adherents will claim that "ki" gives them ability to do the fantastic.

Hard work, solid proven techniques and training methods and athleticism are the keys to being an effective martial artist, not belief in unproven, non-existent, and utterly worthless methods and concepts.

However, belief in "ki" and its quasi-mystical effects allows people to become convinced their martial art is effective. They could be grossly out of shape, but with a few parlor tricks and an environment full of confirmation bias they'll tell anyone who will listen about the way they're able to project ki and sense an opponents movements. Compliant and scripted unrealistic "real life" scenarios really drive the point home for folks caught up in this stuff.

You put a ki-throwing Aikido or Qigong master and put him in a scuffle with a guy that did wrestling for a few years and I'll tell ya who's going to win that one.

"Qi" is garbage, it's been proven so and anyone claiming to be able to accomplish anything using it may as well claim that he can summon faeries to do his bidding.
Click to expand...

I do find Tai Chi good for "meditating" though.
 
Redtail said:
I do find Tai Chi good for "meditating" though.
Click to expand...

It ain't gonna prepare you for a physical altercation any more than relaxing in a nice chair with some Al Green (maybe Miles Davis) and a glass of whiskey will.

That's how I prefer to meditate. :D
 
somnum said:
But a metal detector would have to find something capable of producing a charge, no?
Click to expand...
Have to? No.

Assume for the moment that it wasn't something akin to tsig and the carpet. That means it was something else which may have been as small as a battery and a paper clip, both of which can be missed in at least two ways:

1. The operator uses the detector poorly (easier to use one poorly than you think)

2. The trickster misdirects the operator and uses skill and misdirection to ensure the battery/paperclip are never where the detector is.
 
The metal detector's sensitivity could conceivably be altered, too - though I'm not entirely sure how one would go about doing so.
 
Garrette said:
Have to? No.

Assume for the moment that it wasn't something akin to tsig and the carpet. That means it was something else which may have been as small as a battery and a paper clip, both of which can be missed in at least two ways:

1. The operator uses the detector poorly (easier to use one poorly than you think)

2. The trickster misdirects the operator and uses skill and misdirection to ensure the battery/paperclip are never where the detector is.
Click to expand...

There seems to be many mundane explanations yet some always want to jump to the "paranormal ability" one immediately.

Isn't this whole thing just saying "I don't know how it was done so magic"?
 
JoeyDonuts said:
It ain't gonna prepare you for a physical altercation any more than relaxing in a nice chair with some Al Green (maybe Miles Davis) and a glass of whiskey will.

That's how I prefer to meditate. :D
Click to expand...

LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE And HAPPINESS....

I know. That's where the Boxing, Wrestling & BJJ come in.

(And capoeira, it's fun and looks great on the beach.):D
 
Redtail said:
I know. That's where the Boxing, Wrestling & BJJ come in.
Click to expand...

I know, right? Two of which are traditional western martial arts that are historically scoffed at by the more "enlightened" pajama-wearing set.

I'd add Judo to that list as well. It's good stuff.
 
somnum said:
Sure, sounds very plausible. The extent of what we know is a metal detector. And I suppose we don't know how thorough it was. But a metal detector would have to find something capable of producing a charge, no? I assume that is why they wanted him to leave the premises.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Honestly, I have no idea. Again, we only have the information at hand.

However, here's how to think about it - is it more likely that a mistake was made with the metal detector, or he evaded it, or it couldn't detect his method (and so forth)...OR...that there is a field of life-force energy that he can use so efficiently yet it evades all attempts to identify and qualify when interested parties try to get a closer look.

For my money, if I were a betting man, I'd be leaning towards the box A.

Athon
 
Foolmewunz said:
I seem to recall a certain bearded magician taking him down on an occasion or two....


http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-04/042007todd.html

I'd imagine we probably have a thread around here about him, but I couldn't locate one. Here's the job the Skeptics Forum did on him. Fourth or fifth post itemizes the tricks and possible explanations, somewhat.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8888
Click to expand...


See, now, Somnum, ... I don't think you're really looking for explanations but want to make rhetorical points with a bunch of skeptics, so I'm bumping my previous introductory post in this thread.

And since you don't seem to want to look at the link, let's just quote the post discussing the methods he may be using and why don't you start from that point?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: John Chang- how does he do this?
by Electric Monk » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:41 pm

Logomachist wrote:
What do you guys think? Is he legit? How does he do it?
Click to expand...

On first viewing, Chang appears to be doing a few simple carnival tricks:

1. "Generating electricity" - this is normally done with the use of a small high-frequency, high-voltage, low-amperage device taped to the performer's body. James Randi mentions this device here, regarding others who have done this:

Randi wrote:
This “chi” scam artist on YouTube is probably using the very same setup as the Malaysian crook did, a small battery-powered device worn on the body that develops very high voltage at very low amperage, that can be directed from the body of the performer to anything that’s at a lower potential than he is. It’s a form of Tesla coil, and it’s very effective. There’s also a rabbi in New York using this same gimmick to convince the faithful…
Click to expand...


2. Catching a "rifle bullet" - what is shown is the firing of a very low-speed pellet that can pierce the wall of an empty soda can. Then, Chang puts his hand in front of the gun. He is in no danger, and there does not appear to be anything extraordinary about what he is doing.

3. Moving a knife - Chang carefully balances a knife on its sheath. It is shown moving slightly in one direction, twice. With such a precariously-balanced object, the slightest breeze will move it readily. All Chang has to do is wait a bit. In the first movement, he has his mouth close to the knife, "talking" to it. In the second, he has leaned back, so either he's caught a breeze, or he started the knife in a position that would naturally swing away, or else he's using his knee (either one would work, but it's hard to tell from that angle which, if either, is in position), to slightly lift the glass tabletop.

4. "Fooling the experts" - they have a CEO, a doctor, and a physicist. They really needed an electrical engineer. They try to use an ordinary volt meter. If he's using the high-frequency device, of course they will not get readings from this! Some experts they are! Maybe they actually do use the metal detector on his back and feet to check for the device, but this is not shown. Chang seems to be flexing his back to produce his electricity. I would check between his shoulder blades. I mean, they strip him almost naked, but they let him leave his shirt on?!? Oh, and the color-changing LEDs have different colors depending on the direction of the current, not the amount.

5. "Chopstick through the table" - has anything ever looked more like a set-up magic trick? First, he takes them to his local restaurant. Then he can't make the "chi" work on Formica, so he needs to use the bottom of the table. This trick requires nothing more than a cheap table with a seam in the wood.

As miracles go, I can't say I'm impressed.

--James
ancora imparo
Electric Monk
Moderator
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom