John Chang 'chi master'

somnum said:
Let's say I can jump higher than any other man alive. Let's say I think angels lift me up for the jump. That doesn't mean they do of course, but the fact that they don't doesn't mean I can't jump higher than anyone else.
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Okay, I'll bite. So what exactly does John Chang claim he can do?
 
Stray Cat said:
No, the fact that you can't jump higher than anyone else is enough evidence to counter your claim.
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And whooosh goes the point over your head. He was making a claim that because Chang was talking metaphysical BS as to the mechanism, therefore the result could not possibly have existed. Which is essentially like saying:

Me: I willed the sun to rise this morning
Him: That is impossible that you could have willed the sun to rise, therefore the sun did not rise this morning.
 
somnum said:
Sorry you missed this part then nature.com/nature/journal/v295/n5846/abs/295234a0.html

But please, continue to ridicule something you know nothing about, it really makes you look like the erudite sceptic we all strive to be.
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What you have MORE stuff that needs reading... what a drag.

Perhaps if you'd started with real stuff instead of pretend Chi magic tricks posted on YouTube, this discussion would have gone a bit better.
 
Stray Cat said:
What you have MORE stuff that needs reading... what a drag.

Perhaps if you'd started with real stuff instead of pretend Chi magic tricks posted on YouTube, this discussion would have gone a bit better.
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Either ridicule my lack of scientific references OR ridicule my plethora of scientific references please. I demand you retract one of your objections.
 
somnum said:
And whooosh goes the point over your head. He was making a claim that because Chang was talking metaphysical BS as to the mechanism, therefore the result could not possibly have existed. Which is essentially like saying:

Me: I willed the sun to rise this morning
Him: That is impossible that you could have willed the sun to rise, therefore the sun did not rise this morning.
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No, the point didn't escape me... It's NOT Chang's claims about metaphysical mechanisms that need to be disproved, the mechanisms are all well known magic tricks that lead directly to the results he gets. We don't HAVE to rule metaphysical BS out, anyone taking it at face value has to rule magic trickery out.
 
MattusMaximus said:
Okay, I'll bite. So what exactly does John Chang claim he can do?
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Well I think it's an implicit claim that he is somehow able to cause electric charges. Of course he would call it chi or something, I would be more surprised if he were able to do it and had perfect physiological knowledge of how. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it can actually happen.
 
somnum said:
Either ridicule my lack of scientific references OR ridicule my plethora of scientific references please. I demand you retract one of your objections.
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Sorry I don't have time to retract either of my objections (?)... I'm too busy reading the plethora of scientific references you have provided.
 
somnum said:
Let's say I can jump higher than any other man alive. Let's say I think angels lift me up for the jump. That doesn't mean they do of course, but the fact that they don't doesn't mean I can't jump higher than anyone else.
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Once you can demonstrate that you can jump higher than any other man alive, we can start to discuss mechanisms.
 
somnum said:
Well I think it's an implicit claim that he is somehow able to cause electric charges. Of course he would call it chi or something, I would be more surprised if he were able to do it and had perfect physiological knowledge of how. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it can actually happen.
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Okay, that's kind of vague. Can you provide anything more specific?

Btw, I can also "create electric charge" by walking across my carpet on a dry day. That's hardly something special.
 
Stray Cat said:
Do you have access to this .pdf?

It requires payment to read.
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I can get it for you tomorrow from work. Don't tell anyone though.

You can however read the abstract which of course gives you the results of the study. My guess is you want to read it for more precise 'lab' conditions?
 
MattusMaximus said:
Okay, that's kind of vague. Can you provide anything more specific?

Btw, I can also "create electric charge" by walking across my carpet on a dry day. That's hardly something special.
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Ok, focal electric charges of bodily origin that are strong*

*strong is defined as the amount of electric current needed to induce loss of focal muscle control in a fellow participant.

I'm sure there is a better way to word that but you get the idea.
 
arthwollipot said:
With another non sequitur?

It hasn't been demonstrated that Chang has any magical powers.
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Where exactly was my fallacy?

I was simply saying he cannot dismiss the idea that Chang is producing bodily electric charges because the idea of chi is BS. Of course that does not mean that he is in fact producing those bodily electric charges, but please point me to where I said he necessarily was.
 
somnum said:
Ok, focal electric charges of bodily origin that are strong*

*strong is defined as the amount of electric current needed to induce loss of focal muscle control in a fellow participant.

I'm sure there is a better way to word that but you get the idea.
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No, I'm afraid I don't. First off, what do you mean by "focal electric charges"? Bear in mind that I'm a physicist, and as someone who has had much formal training in electricity I've never even heard this term before, so you're going to have to be more explicit.

And, again, if you're talking about basically zapping someone with enough current to cause their muscles to twitch uncontrollably, that's hardly interesting. Take, for example, the case of my carpet on a dry winter day: walk across it, touch a metal object like a light switch, and zappo - a muscle twitch. That seems to qualify with what you're discussing here.

So, you're still being a bit too vague here. Please tell me, very specifically, what Chang claims to be able to do. Is he claiming that he can simply "summon up" an electric charge and then zap people with it? What?
 
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somnum said:
I can get it for you tomorrow from work. Don't tell anyone though.

You can however read the abstract which of course gives you the results of the study. My guess is you want to read it for more precise 'lab' conditions?
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I am showing a willingness to read information provided and try to understand it to the best of my ability.

Meditation has many beneficial effects on the mind and body for lots of reasons. And an ultra relaxed body will have less need for oxygen surely?

But I don't see a connection between meditation and John Chang's claims
 
somnum said:
Where exactly was my fallacy?

I was simply saying he cannot dismiss the idea that Chang is producing bodily electric charges because the idea of chi is BS. Of course that does not mean that he is in fact producing those bodily electric charges, but please point me to where I said he necessarily was.
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You've missed the point. Is Chang really producing an electric charge? Or is he using some kind of trick? What's more likely - that someone has a previously-unknown magic power, or that they are cleverly deceiving people? Here's a hint: clever deceivers are known to exist.
 
MattusMaximus said:
No, I'm afraid I don't. First off, what do you mean by "focal electric charges"? Bear in mind that I'm a physicist, and as someone who has had much formal training in electricity I've never even heard this term before, so you're going to have to be more explicit.

And, again, if you're talking about basically zapping someone with enough current to cause their muscles to twitch uncontrollably, that's hardly interesting. Take, for example, the case of my carpet on a dry winter day: walk across it, touch a metal object like a light switch, and zappo - a muscle twitch. That seems to qualify with what you're discussing here.

So, you're still being a bit too vague here. Please tell me, very specifically, what Chang claims to be able to do.
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Ah, that's understandable why you wouldn't get it, because I am using the term 'focal' in a medical context. As in, a specific part of the body.

And no of course your example would not qualify because you neglected my "of bodily origin" part of definition.
 
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