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Another aside I have been kind of morbidly wondering about: what kind of shotgun and shells was the hillbilly packing? Arbery was hit at point blank range. If a 12 GA with buckshot, he would have been missing his torso. Maybe Travis had low brass birdshot, or even a handloaded rocksalt, that penetrated enough to cause him to bleed to death?
 
Not really. You seem to think it's ok for the three 'civic minded' to follow the black guy, and kill him out of duty. Because he's black. And you seem to think it was acceptable, because blacks are 'more likely to be criminals'.

They committed murder.

Can you point out my post where I have said "I would support them shooting him dead even if he hadn't physically attacked and tried to take the gun" ?

My support of him getting popped is based on him having done that.
 
Again the "Well if turns out the murdered black guy had committed a crime I just might have to change my opinion" thing isn't open minded, it's horrible.
 
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Oh yeah, totally. He was making sure the building was up to code.

Might I suggest we begin breaking ground on the Ahmaud Arbery Memorial School of Architectural Design, immediately?

You know what else is normal? Telling people "oh hey, yeah - I was just checking it out" - not darting off and then attacking people when they try to stop you. He was looking for stuff to steal in there, and he either pocketed a few tools because it was all he could plausibly walk out of there with in the daytime, or he dropped some sort of burglary-assisting implement he'd brought with him on the street. There is a tool laying on the street where he'd just run.

In all my many years alive, I've never just seen some hammer or something laying in a residential street. It was there because he dropped it.

His every action indicated he knew what he was and that he'd been caught. Had your scenario been true, it would've ended with sheepish white guys listening as he explained himself to the responding officers.

He had stolen stuff on this same street before, he was back stealing again, they confronted him - he knew they had him dead to rights, and he decided physically attacking a guy with a shotgun was worth the risk. That was idiotic, and he died as a result. Society was improved by him exiting it. Society will be made worse if these men go to prison over this.

Dude, absolute worst case scenario: he was stealing a hammer ( that no self respecting tradesman would leave laying on an open site anyway) or whatever. That's no reason at all to confront him with firearms. Its not a capital offense. You break out the boomsticks, you intend to kill. Killing over a guy in shorts pinching a hammer is damn straight up murderous.
 
Who has the ability to steal construction material?? A person who has a truck or a jogger?

It would probably take the jogger a month to steal a 20 foot length of 2x4 if he had to cut it to fit in his pocket.
 
Just so we are 100% clear the actual arguments being made in this thread are:

- It is 100% okay if two armed citizens stop another citizen after the fact (not during the committing of said crime) because they think he is the person who committed a minor crime (that never got reported) and to kill him when he resists them "detaining" him.

- (Optional) The above will become okay if it turns out the person in question did in fact commit that crime.
 
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Well apparently one of the McMichaels had had guns stolen from his unlocked car.

And then I think there was a claim of one other incident as well.

I think it's a distinct possibility that more things had happened than had resulted in police reports. Ironically, an ex cop might be less likely to report certain things knowing that it had like a zero percent chance of being solved, especially if it was due to a car being left unlocked.


Guns?
 
My understanding of the pursuers' account of things is that they were along side him for a while before the video starts, asking/telling him to stop and that they wanted to talk to him, maybe they indicated police were on the way also, or maybe he could have easily heard the father in the bed of the truck on the phone with police (I believe he was on his cell in the truck)

If this is correct, then they were in a position to see how he was behaving and reacting up close, and based on his behavior and reactions, combined with having seen him exit the property he was trespassing on, and apparently having seen him on other videos previously or seen him around at the time of other crimes, it may have been 100% obvious to them that he was fleeing / not jogging while oblivious to them.

I think their every action speaks to them having certainty based on their much better vantage point than we have, that this was a criminal fleeing the scene of a crime who didn't want to be held up until police could arrive.

His launching an assault on them when they got out of the truck only serves to confirm that that was what he was.

The idea that he was just blissfully ignorant, jogging along, hadn't even noticed these guys or this truck, only to finally notice them when they were in front of him with guns, is a silly and implausible narrative in the extreme.


You should read their statements then you don’t need to use your understanding.
 
Oh yeah, totally. He was making sure the building was up to code.

Might I suggest we begin breaking ground on the Ahmaud Arbery Memorial School of Architectural Design, immediately?

You know what else is normal? Telling people "oh hey, yeah - I was just checking it out" - not darting off and then attacking people when they try to stop you. He was looking for stuff to steal in there, and he either pocketed a few tools because it was all he could plausibly walk out of there with in the daytime, or he dropped some sort of burglary-assisting implement he'd brought with him on the street. There is a tool laying on the street where he'd just run.

In all my many years alive, I've never just seen some hammer or something laying in a residential street. It was there because he dropped it.

His every action indicated he knew what he was and that he'd been caught. Had your scenario been true, it would've ended with sheepish white guys listening as he explained himself to the responding officers.

He had stolen stuff on this same street before, he was back stealing again, they confronted him - he knew they had him dead to rights, and he decided physically attacking a guy with a shotgun was worth the risk. That was idiotic, and he died as a result. Society was improved by him exiting it. Society will be made worse if these men go to prison over this.

Hey, great news Skeptic Tank, I just got off the phone with the Oxford Dictionary Company, and they are excited to use your post as an example of a Strawman Fallacy in their next edition. Congrats.
 
Oh yeah, totally. He was making sure the building was up to code.

Might I suggest we begin breaking ground on the Ahmaud Arbery Memorial School of Architectural Design, immediately?

You know what else is normal? Telling people "oh hey, yeah - I was just checking it out" - not darting off and then attacking people when they try to stop you. He was looking for stuff to steal in there, and he either pocketed a few tools because it was all he could plausibly walk out of there with in the daytime, or he dropped some sort of burglary-assisting implement he'd brought with him on the street. There is a tool laying on the street where he'd just run.

In all my many years alive, I've never just seen some hammer or something laying in a residential street. It was there because he dropped it.

His every action indicated he knew what he was and that he'd been caught. Had your scenario been true, it would've ended with sheepish white guys listening as he explained himself to the responding officers.

He had stolen stuff on this same street before, he was back stealing again, they confronted him - he knew they had him dead to rights, and he decided physically attacking a guy with a shotgun was worth the risk. That was idiotic, and he died as a result. Society was improved by him exiting it. Society will be made worse if these men go to prison over this.


Do you actually believe your own drivel? Nobody says he stole anything from anybody. In fact, according to the latest press reports, there's no substantiated evidence that anybody stole anything on this street. You're not only swallowing the killers' horsecrap, you're embellishing it. This was a straight-up Georgia lynching.

Thought experiment: Suppose it was a white guy out for an afternoon jog, and two black men blocked him with their pickup and shoved guns in his face. 1/ Would he be justified in trying to run away? 2/ Would they be justified in killing him?

Get back to us.
 
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Do you actually believe your own drivel? Nobody says he stole anything from anybody. In fact, according to the latest press reports, there's no substantiated evidence that anybody stole anything on this street. You're not only swallowing the killers' horsecrap, you're embellishing it. This was a straight-up Georgia lynching.

Thought experiment: Suppose it was a white guy out for an afternoon jog, and two black men blocked him with their pickup and shoved guns in his face. 1/ Would he be justified in trying to run away? 2/ Would they be justified in killing him?

Get back to us.

Make all circumstances exactly as they are here, and sure.
 
Yep, once again this video (at the 13 minute mark) confirms my perceptions.

He's out "jogging" as a cover story to look for things to steal. He sees this place that's wide open, he checks around while in the front yard to see the coast is clear, then he enters and looks for things to take. This is doubly confirmed by the previous video.

Camera may not have caught it, but he at least pockets a hammer or similar tool that he later dumps on the street so he can claim he has no stolen goods on him when cops arrive.

This is not "Oh i'm Karen out for my jog and oh, isn't this house under construction mildly interesting? Let me gawk at it for a few minutes from the street or possibly outer portions of the lawn" he goes INSIDE the structure, and lingers, searching for loot.

Nope, there's no crime there. Even if there was, the crackers would have to have seen it for the citizen's arrest.
 
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Okay so this is new video. This actually just confirms my perceptions more.

Two things I note in this video:

He is very, very clearly deep inside of a construction area to look for things to steal. That's all he'd be doing in a place like that. He's not just curious about something, taking a look from the outer boundaries of an area - he's deep inside a structure, seeking loot. Anyone who disputes this isn't being honest.

And on a more "nobody's going to agree with me" note here, I want to point out that the guy just straight up looks like a hoodlum.

The "he was out jogging" thing is a lie and a cover story for seeking thief-portunities. Whether it was a lie he told his mom and she parroted, or a lie she made up to paint him in a more positive light, either way it's a lie.

EDIT:

It cannot be overstated how important this video actually is, because it helps establish what mindset he would have had. He knew he had just been deep in the heart of an area, trespassing, and I do believe he drops a hammer or similar tool on the road in the earlier video. I believe he couldn't find anything particularly valuable, especially anything he could easily carry out of there in the daytime (may have thought about returning later if he saw something he couldn't walk out with in the day) but he wasn't about to leave completely empty handed, and he pocketed a couple of small tools, or one at least. Dropped it as they pursued him, so it wouldn't be on him when cops arrived.

The fact that he knew that he had just been trespassing and stealing means that the idea that he was just innocently jogging along is bogus. Total BS as I knew it was. This means that his entire mindset about what these guys wanted / were doing and how he should react to it, is all based on "i'm a criminal that got caught and the cops are on the way" NOT "ho hum, enjoying my jog... oh my! who are these KKK with guns!?!?! better fight for my life!!!"

I haven't said anything in this thread up to this point, but I feel that it necessary for me to tell a story from my personal life.

I am a white, middle class male in my 40s living in the New England area. While visiting my parents home for a party a few years ago, my mother remarked about the construction of a new house next door. My parents house and the previous house next door were both constructed in the same time period and she was curious.

So me, my father, my aunt, my uncle, and three of my cousins, all went in to the house under construction (my mom has mobility issues). It was the weekend and there were no workers there. We looked around the living room area, the kitchen (sign, what is the appeal of granite countertops exactly), and a small bedroom on the first floor. We didn't go the second floor since the stairs were temporary and looked a bit iffy. Afterwards, we went back to my parents place and told her all about it.

A few years later, we had gathered at my parents house again, and a different house was being constructed further down the street, just around the corner. Again we headed out and my family looked inside. This time I did not, as it was in an earlier state of construction, and I thought I had seen enough of the interior and I was more interested in the water and sewage connections which were still exposed. Afterwards, we went back to my parents place and told her all about it.

And that's it. We went into houses under construction on two separate occasions without legal permission while no one was around. Nothing was stolen or damaged, and no malice was intended in either case. To the right sort of mind, new construction is very interesting, and human curiosity is a very real thing. I will now leave this thread, as I don't really wish to engage in a hair splitting debate about YAUBMS.
 
A man is dead. Can you all please stop this ****** It's disgusting.
 
Can I just say that I enjoy the narrative that a violent criminal, on being confronted by two men with guns, would first drop his hammer and then move in to attack?
 
Well apparently one of the McMichaels had had guns stolen from his unlocked car.

And then I think there was a claim of one other incident as well.

I think it's a distinct possibility that more things had happened than had resulted in police reports. Ironically, an ex cop might be less likely to report certain things knowing that it had like a zero percent chance of being solved, especially if it was due to a car being left unlocked.

I am curious, in many parts of the world leaving a gun in an unlocked car would be a crime. I assume from this it is acceptable in Georgia to leave unsecured firearms lying around?
 
I am curious, in many parts of the world leaving a gun in an unlocked car would be a crime. I assume from this it is acceptable in Georgia to leave unsecured firearms lying around?

Georgia does not have laws specifically related to storage of firearms so, to the best of my knowledge as I can find, leaving a weapon in an unlocked car is not illegal there.
 
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