"Jesus Camp"

[clarsct]

Scary.

Can't they call that child abuse or something?

 

[BPSCG]

And you don't think that can happen in America? You don't think that if given enough time, money, and effort the Christian Right can not turn the U.S. into a society that celebrates, encourages, and subsidizes murder, albeit in the name of Jesus rather than Mohammed?

No. Don't be an ass.

If you think it can happen, please complete the sequence of events leading up to it. You can pick up right after the necessary first step, which I have already obligingly filled in for you:

1. Hundreds of millions of Americans convert to a grotesque brand of "murder-thy-infidel-neighbor" religion they claim is based on the teachings of Jesus, in a bizarre parallel to Islam.
2. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
3. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
4. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
5. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)

 

[ImaginalDisc]

No. Don't be an ass.

If you think it can happen, please complete the sequence of events leading up to it. You can pick up right after the necessary first step, which I have already obligingly filled in for you:

1. Hundreds of millions of Americans convert to a grotesque brand of "murder-thy-infidel-neighbor" religion they claim is based on the teachings of Jesus, in a bizarre parallel to Islam.
2. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
3. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
4. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
5. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)

Gosh, why bother speculating about how it might happen when all we have to do is open a history and see how it has happened? Or, are you suggesting that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were secular humanists?

 

[BPSCG]

Gosh, why both speculating about how it might happen when all we have to do is open a history and see how it has happened? Or, are you suggesting that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were secular humanists?

I certainly had no idea that 15th century Spain was a liberal democracy, or that you could draw any meaningful conclusions by comparing it to 21st century America.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I certainly had no idea that 15th century Spain was a liberal democracy, or that you could draw any meaningful conclusions by comparing it to 21st century America.

I hestiate to Godwin the discussion, but Pre-WWII Germany was a democracy, BPSCG.

 

[UserGoogol]

Nonsense. Militant extremists don't exist in some kind of societal vacuum. The differences I pointed out between the groups indicates that some societies have zero tolerance for murder, and punish it harshly, while others celebrate it, encourage it, and subsidize it.

The fact that the Muslim equivalent of these clubs are more accepted in Palestine and other areas speaks rather poorly for Palestinian culture, but it does not make the clubs in-of-themselves worse.

We're not talking about society, we're talking about the clubs. They don't exist in a societal vacuum, but nothing exists in a societal vacuum. I don't see why we can't discuss the clubs in-of-themselves without referencing how the Muslim ones are so much more accepted in their respective cultures.

 

[BPSCG]

I hestiate to Godwin the discussion, but Pre-WWII Germany was a democracy, BPSCG.

Okay, so you've given up comparing 21st century American democracy with 15th century Spanish monarchy, and have moved on to comparing it to Weimar Republic Germany.

Whatever.* You still haven't shown how you get to step 1 in handing over the entire government apparatus of the U.S. - from your local town council all the way up to Capitol Hill and Pennsylvania Avenue - to murdering fundamentalist theocrats. As you may recall, step 1 was:

Hundreds of millions of Americans convert to a grotesque brand of "murder-thy-infidel-neighbor" religion they claim is based on the teachings of Jesus, in a bizarre parallel to Islam.

You seem to be suggesting that the entire government apparatus of the U.S. - from your local town council all the way up to Capitol Hill and Pennsylvania Avenue - could be handed over to murdering fundamentalist theocrats even if murdering fundamentalist theocrats are a tiny outcast segment of the population.

If not, then again, please explain how we get to step 1, which, to remind you again, was:

Hundreds of millions of Americans convert to a grotesque brand of "murder-thy-infidel-neighbor" religion they claim is based on the teachings of Jesus, in a bizarre parallel to Islam.

* I suppose your next analogy will be to compare U.S. society with that of Striterax or Planet X or something...

 

[Tony]

I notice the usual apologists are in full force. It's truly is a weird occurrence when those who constantly demonize liberalism evoke that very liberalism to make some kind of point that the society they really want will never come about.

 

[BPSCG]

I notice the usual apologists are in full force.

I'll assume you've lumped me in that group...

It's truly is a weird occurrence when those who constantly demonize liberalism evoke that very liberalism to make some kind of point that the society they really want will never come about.

...so I'll ask you to link to any posts of mine that suggest that the "society I really want" is some sort of Christian version of Sha'aria.

I realize I have over five thousand posts for you to sift through here, so take your time.

Or you can save your time and admit (select as many as you like):

• You don't know what the freak you're talking about;
• I wasn't one of "the usual apologists" you were referring to;
• You've been drinking and posting again.

 

[pgwenthold]

The fact that the Muslim equivalent of these clubs are more accepted in Palestine and other areas speaks rather poorly for Palestinian culture, but it does not make the clubs in-of-themselves worse.

Moreover, while its easy to talk about what is "accepted" and what is not, it's worth noting that the existence of this camp is NOT causing major outrage. In fact, it is basically not even known what's going on there. The only way I have heard about it (and hence, the way you all have learned of it) is from an Air America story about the documentary.

Has anyone seen it in the main stream media? Has Dick Cheney seen it on Fox News?

How unacceptable is it in the US? How outraged could people be, since no one even knows it is going on? It seems to me that ignoring it is complicitly accepting it.

As Tony notes, it the liberal media (and the true liberal media - Air America) and those liberal independent film makers that are exposing it.

 

[Tony]

I'll assume you've lumped me in that group...
...so I'll ask you to link to any posts of mine that suggest that the "society I really want" is some sort of Christian version of Sha'aria. [/LIST]

There is no need to; you clearly support Bush, his policies and his supporters. If you don't want to be associated with those who want a Christian nation, perhaps you shouldn't align yourself with them?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

No. Don't be an ass.

If you think it can happen, please complete the sequence of events leading up to it. You can pick up right after the necessary first step, which I have already obligingly filled in for you:

1. Hundreds of millions of Americans convert to a grotesque brand of "murder-thy-infidel-neighbor" religion they claim is based on the teachings of Jesus, in a bizarre parallel to Islam.
2. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
3. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
4. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)
5. (Mark A. Siefert to complete)

Let's see:

1) Right-wing Christian becomes president (e.g. Dubbya): CHECK.
2) Supreme Court is stacked with right-wing Christians (e.g. Alito, Roberts, and the attempt to get Meyers on the court): CHECK.
3) The decisions of government agencies are being influenced by right-wing Christians (e.g. FDA blocking of Plan B, George Deutsch at NASA, etc.): CHECK
4) Both houses of Congress are dominated by a party that sympathizes with the aims of right-wing Christians (e.g. the GOP): Check.
5) Efforts on the state and national level to ban abortion, gay marriage, and even the sale of sex toys: CHECK.
6: Efforts to get "abstinance only" sex ed and "intellegent design" taught in public schools: CHECK.
7: A HUGE block of American citizens who enthusastically cast their votes for all of the above: CHECK!

 

[jj]

Let's see:

1) Right-wing Christian becomes president (e.g. Dubbya): CHECK.
2) Supreme Court is stacked with right-wing Christians (e.g. Alito, Roberts, and the attempt to get Meyers on the court): CHECK.
3) The decisions of government agencies are being influenced by right-wing Christians (e.g. FDA blocking of Plan B, George Deutsch at NASA, etc.): CHECK
4) Both houses of Congress are dominated by a party that sympathizes with the aims of right-wing Christians (e.g. the GOP): Check.
5) Efforts on the state and national level to ban abortion, gay marriage, and even the sale of sex toys,
6: Efforts to get "abstinance only" sex ed and "intellegent design" taught in public schools: CHECK.
7: A HUGE block of American citizens who enthusastically cast their votes for all of the above: CHECK!

Well, yes, but what does that say of people who still deny what is now recent history?

Maybe they just want the dominionists to win? I mean, after all, dominionists think it's ok to lie to people because the ends justify the means.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Oh, also forgot to mention violent attacks on abortion providers and homosexuals: CHECK.

 

[Tony]

...And we have the requisite attempt to downplay these loons...

..by loons.

 

[gnome]

I am appalled at what I have heard... however, I don't see it as a harbinger of doom. If one doesn't think that the media is spreading the story enough... spread it yourself. Phone your local news affiliates. Blog it. Spread it around.

In general I think as BPSCG does that our society will not tolerate them crossing any legal lines... in fact as much a disaster as Waco was, it's a good example of what can happen if one of these "cults" turn to criminal behavior.

If I may interpret to hopefully forestall continued bickering... BPSCG is not praising or minimizing the idiots in these groups at all--simply pointing out that the context they live in makes them less able to do harm. I agree with that.

That said, it is important that our public learn not to knee-jerk applaud anyone that says "jesus" real loud without paying attention to their actual message.

This sort of reminds me of a story someone told me once, of having been sent to a "summer camp" only to be hastily recalled home once his parents found out that they were engaging in target practice on cardboard cutouts of police.

I wish I remember the details, unfortunately I get them all mixed up with the movie "Pink Caddilac".

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

In general I think as BPSCG does that our society will not tolerate them crossing any legal lines... in fact as much a disaster as Waco was, it's a good example of what can happen if one of these "cults" turn to criminal behavior.

OK, maybe America won't descend into a Christianized version of Taliban era Afghanistan; that's the worst-case scenario. However, if you take a hard look at the "War On Christianity" meme along with the popularity of "End Times" Dispensationalism among American Protestants, I think there is reason for concern. Combine paranoid delusions of oppression by "secular" forces who must be influenced by satanic control along with the belief that the world must be made ready for the return of their messiah, and you've got a recipe for domestic terrorism.

I mean, why should Christian extremists fear punishment from earthly authorities when the Rapture is coming? (Hmmmm... that sounds familiar, only without the "72 virgins" schtick.)

 

[pgwenthold]

OK, maybe America won't descend into a Christianized version of Taliban era Afghanistan; that's the worst-case scenario. However, if you take a hard look at the "War On Christianity" meme along with the popularity of "End Times" Dispensationalism among American Protestants, I think there is reason for concern. Combine paranoid delusions of oppression by "secular" forces who must be influenced by satanic control along with the belief that the world must be made ready for the return of their messiah, and you've got a recipe for domestic terrorism.

I mean, why should Christian extremists fear punishment from earthly authorities when the Rapture is coming? (Hmmmm... that sounds familiar, only without the "72 virgins" schtick.)

An Air America host who apparently has a large role in the documentary in fact claimed that the group is indeed a "rapture is coming soon" gang, complete with the "George Bush was annointed to originate it."

They didn't play any audio from the movie that illustrated that thinking, however, so that's why I didn't include it in the OP.

 

[BPSCG]

There is no need to; you clearly support Bush, his policies and his supporters. If you don't want to be associated with those who want a Christian nation, perhaps you shouldn't align yourself with them?

Okay, then your answer to my earlier question is that you've been drinking and posting again. Sixty four million Americans voted for Bush last time out, which I guess means, to your fevered brain, that sixty-four millioin Americans want to impose a Christian version of Sha'aria law on this country. If you truly believe that, can we all assume you have loads of guns 'n' ammo in the basement so you can defend yourself when we they come to get you?

 

[BPSCG]

Wow. So much intellectual dishonesty in such little space. I'm impressed.

Let's see:

1) Right-wing Christian becomes president (e.g. Dubbya): CHECK.

Please explain when and how "right-wing Christian" became synonymous with right-wing violent fundamentalist Christian. I missed that memo.

2) Supreme Court is stacked with right-wing Christians (e.g. Alito, Roberts, and the attempt to get Meyers on the court): CHECK.

I won't repeatedly point up your intellectual dishonesty of equating right-wing Christians with right-wing violent fundamentalist Christians any more.

Instead, I'll just insert a Homer Simpson each time you do it, because that is about the intellectual level of your argument when you do so.

3) The decisions of government agencies are being influenced by right-wing Christians (e.g. FDA blocking of Plan B, George Deutsch at NASA, etc.): CHECK

Are you saying that government employee should be subject to some kind of religious test before he is allowed to make a decision?

Or are you simply complaining because this administration is right-wing, by the will of the electorate, and that, since this country is predominantly Christian, people making decisions on behalf of this administration are likely to be right-wing Christians?

4) Both houses of Congress are dominated by a party that sympathizes with the aims of right-wing Christians (e.g. the GOP): Check.

Yes, they do. Now, please show me your evidence that both houses of Congress are dominated by a party that sympathizes with the aims of right-wing violent fundamentalist Christians.

5) Efforts on the state and national level to ban abortion, gay marriage, and even the sale of sex toys: CHECK.

And if we have become a violent fundamentalist Christian theocracy, how come abortion is still legal in 50 states and nearly every attempt to restrict it at the national level has failed? And why is gay marriage much closer to becoming a legal fact than it was when the last liberal Democrat was president?

6: Efforts to get "abstinance only" sex ed and "intellegent design" taught in public schools: CHECK.

And where is ID today? Becoming increasingly marginalized; if you want your kid taught about ID, you'll have to home-school him. Odd, in a nation run by violent fundamentalist Christians.

7: A HUGE block of American citizens who enthusastically cast their votes for all of the above: CHECK!