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"Jesus Camp"

OK, maybe America won't descend into a Christianized version of Taliban era Afghanistan; that's the worst-case scenario.
No, that's the "my brain has become so unhinged by its hatred of George Bush that I can believe anything about him, including that he has sex with babies, then kills them and drinks their blood because he's a pederast vampire" scenario.

Combine paranoid delusions of oppression by "secular" forces who must be influenced by satanic control along with the belief that the world must be made ready for the return of their messiah, and you've got a recipe for domestic terrorism.
You're leaving out two small, but vital ingredients:
  1. A large number of people who both believe that and;
  2. Are willing to slay anyone who doesn't.
Let me ask you a question: How many people who fit the above description do you believe there are in this country? Be as generous with your estimation as you like.
 
BPSCG,

Are you trying to deny that violent right-wing wing Christians pose a threat to our government and way of life?

oklahomacitybombing6ei.jpg


Is this unfamiliar to you? This was the work of a violent right-wing wing Christian. It was a faith-based initiative.
 
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BPSCg,

Are you trying to deny that violent right-wing wing Christians pose a threat to our government and way of life?

Is this unfamiliar to you? This was the work of a violent right-wing wing Christian. It was a faith-based initiative.
And what happened to the guy who did it? Oh, yeah, that's right. He was captured by the government, prosecuted by the government, convicted by the government, sentenced to death by the government, and put to death by the government His execution was announced nationwide by the right-wing president, who said the scum deserved what he got (not in so many words). And the only loud objections were from left-wing bleeding hearts opposed to the death penalty.

You're attacking a straw man. Are violent right-wing fundamentalist Christians dangerous? Yes. They should be watched like hawks, spied on where appropriate, infiltrated, their plans to commit crimes disrupted, and they should be arrested, vigorously prosecuted, and harshly punished when they commit violent crimes. Just like any extremist group that espouses violence.

But this country is in no danger of having Timothy McVeigh or his ilk running the show.

And you know it. So you set up a straw man, suggesting I'm arguing Timothy McVeigh and others like him are not dangerous people.

Here, you get one, too: :homersimp
 
BPSCG,

Before you go accusing others of attacking strawmen, this is what you said:

Nonsense. Militant extremists don't exist in some kind of societal vacuum. The differences I pointed out between the groups indicates that some societies have zero tolerance for murder, and punish it harshly, while others celebrate it, encourage it, and subsidize it.

You're again failing to acknowledge that it is our liberal (in the classic sense), secular government which protects us from being run by violent right-wing Christians such as him. However, protecting the secularism of our government requires constant vigilance, against the influences of religious extremists of all creeds. Neither The United States nor Christianty are imbued with any magical protection against abuse by religious extremists.

We are special because we struggle to remain secular.
 
And the only loud objections were from left-wing bleeding hearts opposed to the death penalty.

Just as a point... speaking from the other side, it was my impression that the "left-wing bleeding hearts" opposed McVeigh's death penalty for the sake of consistency, but were hardly passionate about it. These events were met with universal outrage on both sides of the political fence.
 
If I might add... the argument going on is pointless. Everyone agrees these people are dangerous and need to be watched. Aside from that, what is there to fight over?
 
BPSCG,

Are you trying to deny that violent right-wing wing Christians pose a threat to our government and way of life?

[qimg]http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9814/oklahomacitybombing6ei.jpg[/qimg]

Is this unfamiliar to you? This was the work of a violent right-wing wing Christian. It was a faith-based initiative.

I have no idea if Tim McVeigh was a Christian or not, but nowhere have I seen that his action was motivated by Christianity. He was anti-government.
 
Just as a point... speaking from the other side, it was my impression that the "left-wing bleeding hearts" opposed McVeigh's death penalty for the sake of consistency, but were hardly passionate about it. These events were met with universal outrage on both sides of the political fence.

I found the response to Waco interesting. There turned out to be a lot of support for the Davidians.
 
You're again failing to acknowledge that it is our liberal (in the classic sense), secular government which protects us from being run by violent right-wing Christians such as him.

Such as who, Timothy McVeigh?

I challenge you to produce any evidence that at the time of the bombings that Timothy McVeigh considered himself a Christian.
 
I have no idea if Tim McVeigh was a Christian or not, but nowhere have I seen that his action was motivated by Christianity. He was anti-government.

He had connections with "Chrtian Identity", one of the most terrifyingly racist, intolerant, anti-semitic and violent movements in the United States today.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/dawning_1.html

It was at this time that he discovered The Turner Diaries. He obsessed over this novel by former American Nazi Party official William Pierce. Writing under the name Andrew Macdonald, Pierce pumps out a litany of hate through the main character Earl Turner. This "hero" demonstrates his contempt for gun control laws by truck-bombing the Washington FBI headquarters. He also appears to favor Adolf Hitler and dismiss blacks and Jews as worthy of annihilation.

http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html
For more than a decade, federal lawmen have sternly advised all visitors not to go near the place. When US marshals tried to fly surveillance missions across the nearby hills, the pilot suddenly pulled away when he saw what he thought were muzzle flashes from the ground. Rumors hold that everyone who lives there, down to the smallest child, is trained and armed; that great underground bunkers hold vast stores of munitions, even chemical and biological weapons. It is a place that federal informants seek to infiltrate, and for which federal agents have laid out secret contingency plans for a Waco-type siege. And it is a place where everyone knows that to appear uninvited risks being shot on sight. The place is Elohim City, an isolated religious community in the Ozark Mountains of eastern Oklahoma. Founded by a bearded former Canadian Mennonite preacher named Robert Millar, and currently being led by his son John, it is home to seventy-five men, women, and children who are true believers in the religious doctrine known as Christian Identity.

Clearly, this is a religious community with a difference. Its members believe that government is the enemy, that America's secular, multicultural society is a present-day Gomorrah, and that Elohim City is a bunker in a great battle between the children of darkness (the Jews) and the children of light (the Aryan race). Elohim City became the subject of scrutiny in the last year when telephone records revealed thatTimothy McVeigh made calls to the rural enclave in the weeks prior to the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. More recently, however, it has been learned that Timothy McVeigh was heavily involved with the domestic terrorists who frequent Elohim City and who practice Christian Identity. But McVeigh's involvement is just one of a host of links that connect the increasingly violent activists of the racist far right to the doctrine which helps to inspire them. Christian Identity, which elevates white supremacy and separatism to a Godly ideal, is the ideological fuel that fires much of the activity of the racist far right.
 
He had connections with "Chrtian Identity", one of the most terrifyingly racist, intolerant, anti-semitic and violent movements in the United States today.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/mcveigh/dawning_1.html



http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html


From your own source:

"Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic. There is nothing indicating that he ascribed to the Identity religion. His political ideology, however, was the same as those who follow the Identity teachings."

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian. What he had in common with these people was his hatred and distrust of government.

http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html
 
From your own source:

"Timothy McVeigh was an agnostic. There is nothing indicating that he ascribed to the Identity religion. His political ideology, however, was the same as those who follow the Identity teachings."

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian. What he had in common with these people was his hatred and distrust of government.

http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh3.html


That's what the article says, though the issue of McVeigh's religious beliefs has become such a bone of contention that I'm having trouble sifting the facts from the spin. I'm willing to drop the subject of his religion altogether until I can get the facts more carefully. However, what is certain Christian Identity has been connected to other violent criminal acts.

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Chr...remism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=Christian_ID

Violence and Hate

Christian Identity's racist and apocalyptic qualities helped lead to several well-known incidents of domestic terrorism during the past quarter century. In North Dakota in 1983, Gordon Kahl demonstrated how radical Identity adherents could be when he killed two U.S. Marshals who had come to arrest him for a parole violation (a mourner at one funeral was Assistant Attorney General Rudolph W. Giuliani, later to become all too familiar with such funerals). A four-month manhunt ended in another shootout in Arkansas, where Kahl killed a local sheriff before he himself was killed.

That same year, the white supremacist terrorist group known as The Order began its series of armed robberies (to which it would add additional crimes ranging from counterfeiting to assassination). Several members of the gang were Christian Identity, including David Tate, who in 1985 killed a Missouri State Highway Patrol officer attempting to reach an Identity survivalist compound called the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA). An ensuing standoff resulted in the demise of the CSA and the arrest of its leadership. During the 1980s, several Identity groups attempted to follow in the footsteps of The Order, including The Order II and the Arizona Patriots, who committed bombings and an attempted armored car robbery, respectively.

In the 1990s, Identity criminal activity continued apace, including efforts by an Oklahoma Identity minister, Willie Ray Lampley, to commit a series of bombings in the summer of 1995 in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh. The following year, the Montana Freemen, whose leaders were Identity, made headlines for their "paper terrorism" tactics and their 81-day standoff with the federal government. In 1998, Eric Rudolph, who had been associated with Identity ministers such as Nord Davis and Dan Gayman, became a fugitive after allegedly bombing gay bars, the Atlanta Summer Olympics, and an abortion clinic. The following year, Buford Furrow, a former Aryan Nations security guard, went on a shooting spree at a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles, wounding four children and an adult, and later killing a Filipino-American postal worker.

Perhaps the most chilling manifestation of Identity terrorism can be found in the concept of the Phineas Priesthood, set forth by Richard Kelly Hoskins in his 1990 book Vigilantes of Christendom. The Priesthood is based on the concept of the obscure Biblical character Phinehas, an Israelite who used a spear to slay a "race-mixing" fellow Israelite and the Midianite woman with whom he had sex. Hoskins conjured up the idea of an elite class of "Phineas Priests," self-anointed warriors who would use extreme measures to attack race-mixers, gays, or abortionists, among other targets. Over the years, some have committed crimes using the Phineas Priest label, including a group of about eight who committed bombings and bank robberies in the Spokane, Washington, area in 1996 (four of whom were caught and sentenced to lengthy prison terms). In 2002, two Aryan Nations splinter groups openly adopted Phineas Priest names or symbols.
 
That's what the article says, though the issue of McVeigh's religious beliefs has become such a bone of contention that I'm having trouble sifting the facts from the spin.

I would suggest that sifting through the facts is not so difficult at all, but that you are having trouble with the obvious conclusions.

I'm willing to drop the subject of his religion altogether until I can get the facts more carefully.

Lol! Until you can find something that says that what you want to be true is true?

However, what is certain Christian Identity has been connected to other violent criminal acts.

These guys are just as violent and dangerous as you fear them to be, but they have nothing to do with “right-wing Christianity”, at least not the kind that influences the Republican party and nominates judges to the Supreme Court.

Fifteen years ago, neo-Nazis were embracing “neo-Odinism” (Thor, Odin, Loki, and the rest of that pantheon) because they couldn’t figure out how to remove the Jew from Judeo-Christian. This is just an extension of that, only they’ve figured out a way to reinterpret the bible to justify their racism.

This isn’t extremist Christianity; it’s extremist racist ideology that happens to have a Christian angle to it.
 
I would suggest that sifting through the facts is not so difficult at all, but that you are having trouble with the obvious conclusions.



Lol! Until you can find something that says that what you want to be true is true?

I find your lack of manners appaling. I found some sites which directly conradict the assertion above. I'm trying to find the conclusions drawn by the FBI, who I trust we'd accept?

This isn’t extremist Christianity; it’s extremist racist ideology that happens to have a Christian angle to it.

What's the difference? One hundred and fifty years ago, racism was heavily justified by dogmatic (not scriptual) Christian beliefs. Many protestant sects viewed dark skin as the mark of Cain, and considered blacks to be less than human.
 
I find your lack of manners appaling. I found some sites which directly conradict the assertion above. I'm trying to find the conclusions drawn by the FBI, who I trust we'd accept?

If you found them you didn't show them. Nothing you quoted showed McVeigh to be a Christian much less linked his crime to Christian beliefs.

What's the difference? One hundred and fifty years ago, racism was heavily justified by dogmatic (not scriptual) Christian beliefs. Many protestant sects viewed dark skin as the mark of Cain, and considered blacks to be less than human.

For starters, the difference is one hundred and fifty years.
 
Okay, then your answer to my earlier question is that you've been drinking and posting again. Sixty four million Americans voted for Bush last time out, which I guess means, to your fevered brain, that sixty-four millioin Americans want to impose a Christian version of Sha'aria law on this country. If you truly believe that, can we all assume you have loads of guns 'n' ammo in the basement so you can defend yourself when we they come to get you?

Noted and dismissed as an ad hom argument. Have anything of substance?
 
Is this anywhere near Jesus Ranch? I think Tenacious D might have to look into a copyright infringement suit.
 
BPSCG,

Before you go accusing others of attacking strawmen, this is what you said:
Nonsense. Militant extremists don't exist in some kind of societal vacuum. The differences I pointed out between the groups indicates that some societies have zero tolerance for murder, and punish it harshly, while others celebrate it, encourage it, and subsidize it.
You're again failing to acknowledge that it is our liberal (in the classic sense), secular government which protects us from being run by violent right-wing Christians such as him.
Who is "him?"

In any case, I am acknowledging exactly that. What do you think I was referring to when I said, "some societies have zero tolerance for murder, and punish it harshly"? Our liberal (in the classic sense) secular government protects us from violence, whether it is from religious survivalist wackos or left-wing kooks intent on bringing on "the revolution."

However, protecting the secularism of our government requires constant vigilance, against the influences of religious extremists of all creeds. Neither The United States nor Christianty are imbued with any magical protection against abuse by religious extremists.
No argument. But there are those here who seem to think that a takeover by Fred Phelps and his legions clique of crazies is just around the corner. It's not, because even if this country twice voted to make a conservative Christian its leader, it did not vote to make a murdering religious lunatic its leader.

If you want a taste of what would happen to those people if they ever seriously tried to enter the public debate - say at your local school board meeting - go back and look at that video of Phelps's daughter on Hannity and Colmes. Even Sean Hannity, who many of you here seem to think of as Rush Limbaugh's eviler brother, tore into her like she'd kicked his mother. Hannity's no friend of abortion, but he called her every name in the book (wish I could get the streaming audio at work so I could mine a few of the choicer ones). Colmes was a little nicer; he simply started out by asking her if she was out of her mind.

And, that, my friends, is what the murderous religious nutjobs in this country are up against - the entire range of political opinion that lies between the hard conservatism of Sean Hannity and the hard liberalism of Alan Colmes. If they ever tried to act on their beliefs, they'd get stomped, in a hurry.

And the conservatives here, I can guarantee you, would be among the most eager stompers.

So, yes, keep careful tabs on the loony fundamentalists. But have no fear they will ever have the power to do anything more than frighten alarmists who see a fundamentalist takeover of the U.S. government every time they pass an Episcopal church.
 

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