Interesting JE Hits....

[neofight]

It's true that most mental mediums seem to use the same "process". However, I've never heard anyone except JE use this "frame of reference" argument. I'm very suspicious of this particular claim.

RC, I honestly do not know whether or not you are correct on this. I'd have to go back and read a George Anderson or JVP book to see if I could find any of their quotes that refer to a frame of reference. In any case, the personal frame of reference concept makes eminent sense to me.

I did say that JE did not normally see letters or words, and I do stand by that statement. I believe I used the phrase, "as a rule". I do remember on rare occasions John saying something like the letter "T" getting bigger and bigger, when the spirit was insisting on something, but that's the exception, and not the rule, as far as I remember.

The medium I went to was able to get the word "Clarendon". This word is part of a meaningful joke between my partner and I. We were the only 2 people who would know about that joke. I highly doubt that Karen has a "frame of reference" of a white board with the word "Clarendon", but somehow she was able to say it.

No, RC. I agree, and naturally, I do remember your mentioning that unusual hit. Do you know for a fact though, that Karen got that word clairvoyantly, rather than clairaudiently? I would have thought the latter, but perhaps her clairvoyance is her strong point, and she gets words that way. If I'm not mistaken, JE has claimed that his strong suit was clairaudience, rather than clairvoyance.

You yourself, in your pyschic development class, seem to have gotten the name "Johann" (SP?) through clairvoyance, RC, so as I said, it could depend on the particular medium, and which sense of theirs is stronger.

What about the "Tom Petty" record album? Was that not in your own frame of reference, RC? Or had you never before seen that record jacket before you saw it psychically?

Neo, I really don't understand this frame of reference argument at all. Surely JE has read the word "Uncle" and the word "Fred" at one time in his life, so the words are indeed in his frame of reference. It just doesn't fly.

RC, I never claimed to have all the answers you know. I don't remember any of the mediums that I've ever seen able to get "Uncle Fred" or "Aunt Rose" in the manner you suggest, do you? I believe they all get the older male, female to the side, younger energy, below, etc.

I think once JE may have gotten an "Aunt Mary", or something, precisely because he was shown his own Aunt Mary, but don't hold me to that vague memory. Does anyone else remember that happening once?

Also, did you just state that spirits aren't able to give letters? They do it all the time with JE. He claims that when a spirit is "shouting" a "T" name, that he is "seeing" the letter T getting bigger and bigger. So if a spirit can give one letter, why can't they give four of them to spell the name "Fred"...and then go on to spell a few words to make a sentence?

Exactly what I said earlier, RC. I don't know why, but I can only assume that mediums cannot do this sort of thing on any grand scale, with the possible exception of a "trance" medium. From what I've read about their abilities, it would seem that if any medium would be capable of getting whole sentences, etc., it would be this type of medium.

And I disagree with you, RC, about the spirits doing this "all the time". I think the letters that they give John are almost always given through clairaudience. At least, that has been my own observation. ......neo

 

[thaiboxerken]

Another possiblity to be borne in mind -- one with which not a little of the evidencce could be squared -- is that there is survival, but survival only of a diminished and truncated something, capable of manifesting as a quasi-person in certain circumstances, but not ordinarily to be thought of as a person at all."

Mike

LOL. It's all BS, it sounds nice, but it's still BS. All that is left of a person is the memories of them and the evidence that they used to be around. The memories and the evidence fade faster for some than others.

 

[Mike D.]

Mike D.


We touched on this the other day in another thread....just how *much* of me will remain in this diminished/truncated after-me? At JE seance time, it appears there is quite a bit - spirit-me has my 'life' memories, and even memories of things that have happened in the real world after I passed. I even retain my 'relationships' with both living and dead - although the emotional content of *all* relationships appears to have changed from the wide range available in life (hate, indifference, affection, love) to just love/peace. Yes, even people I loathed in life I appear to embrace affectionately in death.

Does spirit-me still follow the same sporting teams? Does spirit-me care who wins the Superbowl? Is spirit-me still interested in music? Does spirit-me write songs anymore? Is spirit-me still attempting to learn Japanese? If I reach the after life and I don't have any interest in sport, I don't care about music, I've stopped learning new skills, and my opinon of everyone has changed to "really, they're lovely!", then in what sense have *I* crossed over?

Loki,

I've always had trouble imagining what an afterlife would be like in any concrete terms, and part of this has to do with what you've said here. It seems the more concretely I try to think about an afterlife, the more difficult it is for me to imagine it in what to me would be a realistic way.

Mike

 

[neofight]

No? JE claims not to know what is on the other side. These skeptics do. That's contradictory, Clancie.

My point is - again - that JVP knows what goes on over there. JE doesn't.

Or does he? Perhaps we are dealing with yet-another-JE-contradiction??

There is no contradiction, Claus. You're right. For the most part, I think JE is the least vocal and the most cautious about what he says concerning what it might be like on the other side.

He does acknowledge that he gets little glimpses and quick impressions of what it might be like in that dimension, but he is also sensible enough to say that he, and we, are here in the physical realm, and not over there. That's why he is reluctant to say too much about it because after all, he really cannot "know" for certain, since he is here, and not there.

Anything he might be shown of the afterlife would always be subject to his own interpretation anyhow, so I think he is wise not to give the impression that he knows it all. I fail to see the great big contradiction you mention, Claus......neo

 

[Mike D.]

Mike D.


We touched on this the other day in another thread....just how *much* of me will remain in this diminished/truncated after-me? At JE seance time, it appears there is quite a bit - spirit-me has my 'life' memories, and even memories of things that have happened in the real world after I passed. I even retain my 'relationships' with both living and dead - although the emotional content of *all* relationships appears to have changed from the wide range available in life (hate, indifference, affection, love) to just love/peace. Yes, even people I loathed in life I appear to embrace affectionately in death.

Does spirit-me still follow the same sporting teams? Does spirit-me care who wins the Superbowl? Is spirit-me still interested in music? Does spirit-me write songs anymore? Is spirit-me still attempting to learn Japanese? If I reach the after life and I don't have any interest in sport, I don't care about music, I've stopped learning new skills, and my opinon of everyone has changed to "really, they're lovely!", then in what sense have *I* crossed over?

Loki,

A few comments on what you've written here. Regarding one's emotions being totally peaceful and loving in the afterdeath state, there are some people who have claimed that there are "lower astral levels" among the afterlife realms, where spirits dwell who had a deficit of positive emotions while alive. And they are said to stay there until they change for the better (or reincarnate, if reincarnation figures into the particular belief system of the people alleging this).

And as far as retaining an interest in music goes, the late Rosemary Brown of course claimed to channel new compositions from composers on the other side, so according to her, those deceased composers have not only retained their interest in music, but continue to compose as well.

Mike

 

[neofight]

Neo are you surprised to find that at least one very well known medium Doris Stokes had a very different process...

Not really, Darat. I've read a little bit about Doris Stokes, although I admit I am nowhere near as familiar with her work as I am with JE's.

A quote here from one of the sites that features her, itself quoting form one of her books her:

Any comments about this very clear cut type of mediumship? Doris didn't have to scramble for meanings of symbols, she didn’t have to have a “personal frame of reference” - she heard the spirits speak as clearly as she heard the living....

Yes, Darat, but I think this might have been more a vision, or a visitation of sorts, and not her usual form of mediumship. If you go look back a ways in Randi's commentary, I believe he featured a story about Doris Stokes and a transcript or partial transcript of her doing readings, and it was nothing at all like this example of her seeing her dead father. In fact, the reading in that particular article that I remember was not too impressive at all. She was rather abysmal, actually.

And Doris isn't alone in claiming a very different process to JEs..

The best known current UK psychic Derek Acorah

It would seem many mediums don't follow the "process" you seem to believe exists.

Could be, Darat. I can't speak to what I do not know. I'm not at all familiar with Derek Acorah. The mediums that I am most familiar with work in a similar manner to JE as far as I can tell, although some of them do claim to speak through their special guide. I don't believe this is the case with JE, JVP, or GA......neo

 

[Mike D.]

Also, did you just state that spirits aren't able to give letters? They do it all the time with JE. He claims that when a spirit is "shouting" a "T" name, that he is "seeing" the letter T getting bigger and bigger. So if a spirit can give one letter, why can't they give four of them to spell the name "Fred"...and then go on to spell a few words to make a sentence?

RC,

I think this is a good point. It's interesting too to remember that there have been mediums who allegedly had spirits communicate through raps and they devised a system where each letter of the alphabet would correspond with a certain number of raps. Then, through this rather laborious process, the spirits could rap out whole words, sentences, and messages.

Mike

 

[neofight]

Nope. I can't find the JVP book (most of my books are still in boxes), but what page do you want me to scan of RA's "You Own the Power"?

Well, call me crazy, Claus, but my guess would be that Clancie would want you to reference whatever part of RA's book that would make your case, you know? Prove your point. Demonstrate your claim. Of course, that's just a wild guess on my part.

Oh, please! Stop lying, Clancie! You know damn well that I was away that weekend - the two days you mentioned. Which I explained to you, and which you have conveniently "forgotten".

Hmmm! Now this is interesting. Are you sure that you are not getting your "Gorgons" as well as your alibis mixed up here, Claus? lol Is that what you told us about that weekend? That you were away? I mean, it's possible, but I don't really have a clear memory of that. I do remember you saying something about getting some sunshine because it was such a nice day, but that's all I remember at this moment.

You did, however, tell me about being away those couple of days back when I had posted one of JE's transcripts. You remember, the thread I started over at tvtalkshows that you made only one post on, demanding me to show you how that transcript differed from cold-reading.

That was the time that you said you were away for a couple of days. Hmmm. As much as I hate doing searches, I might just have to go check the tvtalkshow archives to refresh my memory of what you claimed at the time we were discussing your lack of knowledge concerning JE's books. The ones you claimed to have read. Were you away that weekend as well?

Clancie, do you have any recollection of Claus ever saying that he was away that particular weekend? I mean, it's entirely possible. Anybody? I may have to go ask Rain to find that thread for me. Maybe she'll join us here, and we can have a "Gorgon" reunion. .....neo

 

[neofight]

So not to lose track of the various bits I’ve rambled on about I think my questions to you are

Do you claim that all validations are 100% accurate and consistent across anytime span?

Do you accept that recollections from memory are an unreliable way to determine the truth of an event or in this case a reading by JE?

Sorry, Darat. Those questions got buried.

No, I do not claim that all validations are 100% accurate and consistent across any timespan. However, I do not buy into the idea that sitters cannot be trusted to know whether or not certain things have occurred to them in their lives, which is what Claus is suggesting.

Say, for instance, that a woman had a miscarriage, and JE mentions that fact. According to Claus, she would have to go find someone else to verify that she did, indeed, have a miscarriage. The whole idea is ludicrous. Unless I'm not understanding your question, Darat.

Again, I would concede that memories can be unreliable, but I saw both Tim's original "Milk from a cow" reading, (more than once) AND the followup reading that he did some time later on. Nothing in the followup segment contradicted the original reading that was aired in any significant way whatsoever.

In the followup segment, Tim merely explained the incident in even more depth than in the original segment. He clarified one or two things, but he didn't change his story at all. If Claus had seen these shows, he would know this......neo

 

[Clancie]

Posted by neofight

Hmmm. As much as I hate doing searches, I might just have to go check the tvtalkshow archives to refresh my memory of what you claimed at the time we were discussing your lack of knowledge concerning JE's books. The ones you claimed to have read. Were you away that weekend as well?

Clancie, do you have any recollection of Claus ever saying that he was away that particular weekend? I mean, it's entirely possible.

Hi neo,

Well, my memory of the thread is that he spent a week or more seemingly unable to discuss any information from JE's books (while still claiming to have read them). Then he disappeared for a weekend (a rare occurrence) and reemerged on Monday or Tuesday eager to show that he was indeed now acquainted with the books, even being able to quote one of them for us!

That's how I remember his "lost weekend" anyway,--that, and that it was pretty funny when he returned.

And, yes, he claimed he had not been reading JE books that weekend, just was "busy" elsewhere. It could be true...of course....all true....

I may have to go ask Rain to find that thread for me. Maybe she'll join us here, and we can have a "Gorgon" reunion.

Well, that reunion would be fun, neo! I wish Rain would come on board, and atmytv, too.

Just imagine how happy Claus would be with the three of us all here! I'm sure it would really make his day!

 

[neofight]

Neofight,

Sure - clarification is a good thing!

From Pyrrho's post of the LKL transcript :

This seems pretty clear cut to me - JE is specifically saying that his process, as far as he knows, is his process only - and that we should not be assuming the other mediums do it the same way. What's confusing about this? JE is telling you *not* to assume that any oither medium is using the same process as he is.

Yes, Loki, and I'm not confused, but there are many mediums, especially the ones I've mentioned, that do seem to use a process that very much resembles the one that JE talks about. I've already stated that I believe that some might be stronger in clairvoyance, and others in clairaudience. I've acknowledged that.

Besides, what I was responding to was this quote........

originally posted by LokiTo be precise, we are talking about JE's own personal version of mediumship - there are plenty of mediums who (claim they) can do things that JE says are not possible. Really, "mediumship" is an umbrella term in which each active participant defines their own particular set of rules. Each medium seems to have their own peculiar "process".

Loki, I see nothing anywhere, nor have I ever heard JE ever claim that "there are plenty of mediums who (claim they) can do things that JE says are not possible". As you can clearly see, JE is the first to acknowledge that he does what he does, and other mediums do what they do. Where does he say that he thinks that the stuff other mediums do is impossible, Loki? I think I still need you to clarify your words, because I'm not following you. We each feel that the other is confused. lol

But I can give you a more concrete example if you wish - the Princess Diana seances on TV used a husband and wife as the mediums, and they used an process virtually identical to JE - except that they believed that it *is* possible to "influence" which spirit will come through. As far as I know, JE claims that he has *no control* over who comes through. A clear difference in process, between these mediums, I would think.

Not exactly all that clear, Loki. Although it's true that JE has always acknowledged that he has no real control over who might come through, or what information he might get, that never prevents him from asking for certain things, and very often his request, e.g. for more information or something, is honored by spirit.

He just doesn't want the sitter to be disappointed in case they do not hear from the person they wanted, or didn't get the message they specifically asked for, so he warns them beforehand that he cannot guarantee them anything.

Well, yes! But my point is that they are not "identical", which makes it difficult to establish boundaries of what is possible and not possible - each medium has a slightly different take on things.

Exactly. When JE sees the blood flowing symbol, that, to him, symbolizes an irregularity of the blood, such as AIDS, or leukemia, etc. George Anderson, according to the glossary in his book, "We Don't Die", does actually see the word AIDS appearing over a sitter's head, and that indicates to him either that the spirit that is coming through passed from that disease, or that the sitter in front of him suffers from it. Two very different symbols for the same thing.

Another difference. When GA sees musical notes, it signifies to him that the person had an interest in music, was a musician, disc jockey, songwriter, music teacher etc. On the other hand, when JE sees musical notes, he interprets it as meaning prayers that lift the spirits like music. Once again, the same symbol means something to one, something else to the other, which is the point that I've been trying to make.

I agree that these inconsistencies from one medium to another makes it extremely difficult indeed to establish a viable method of testing, and that's why I sometimes doubt that mediumship will ever be scientifically proven to be real.

First, the thing about the "sheet music" was simply that if we believe JE then the "image" transferred to him obviously contained sufficient detail that he could recognise it as "sheet music", not as "newspaper". He saw details on the paper. If he didn't, then how did he know it was sheet music? He he *did* see details, then why can't the spirits makes one of the details be a 10 inch high letter "A"?

Maybe it's just me, but I think there's a world of difference between being able to show JE a piece of sheet music, which he undoubtedly can recognize even in a quick psychic flash, and sending a series of 10 inch high letters in an effort to spell out words and sentences. But then, what do either of us know? We're not psychic mediums. .....neo

 

[RC]

And I disagree with you, RC, about the spirits doing this "all the time". I think the letters that they give John are almost always given through clairaudience. At least, that has been my own observation. ......neo

Neo, I think you are missing something very big in JE's work. He was asked once if he "hears" or "sees" the initials, and he answered that he "sees" them. He went on to say that when he says that a spirit is "getting louder" he really means that he's "seeing" the letter getting bigger and bigger. He has said this many times and I'm really surprised you haven't caught it.

 

[RC]

AIDS IS NOT AN IRREGULARITY OF THE BLOOD!!!!!!!

 

[Clancie]

Posted by RC

He went on to say that when he says that a spirit is "getting louder" he really means that he's "seeing" the letter getting bigger and bigger. He has said this many times and I'm really surprised you haven't caught it.

Hi RC. Well, I was kind of surprised to read this, too, because frankly it doesn't ring a bell with me either. That doesn't mean he hasn't said it, of course, and maybe I just wasn't paying attention at the time. But I do watch him a lot and have no recollection of anything like that.

As far as AIDS, I posted earlier that I think JE groups it with hepatitis, leukemia, etc. as being what he gets as "blood related" to distinguish it from illness related to "head", "heart", "chest" etc.

Do you think that's so totally off-base? I mean, AIDS and forms of hepatitis can be transmitted through the blood and the Red Cross will reject someone as a blood donor if they have even the potential to have contracted either of them and could possibly pass on the virus through their blood.

I've never thought it was too off-base for JE to associate leukemia, AIDS and hepatitis as diseases that are blood-related. Do you think that seems like an unreasonable connection for him to make?

 

[Loki]

Neo,

As you can clearly see, JE is the first to acknowledge that he does what he does, and other mediums do what they do. Where does he say that he thinks that the stuff other mediums do is impossible, Loki?

Ah ... "pronoun trouble"! Sorry, I can see my language was unclear. I meant to say that JE and other mediums do not agree on what "a medium" can do - each one has things that are "impossible" for them, but not for others. Sylvia can diagnose the health of the sitter, but JE can't. JVP (I think it's him - he's not exactly a specialty of mine!) sees the future, but JE can't. Sylvia (my, but she is talented) can find dead bodies, but JE can't. The Pet Pychic can converse with elephants, but JE can't. And so on. The exact "skill set" and "boundaries" of each is different. We agree on this. The claims of each are unique - the only point I wished to make here is that "mediumship" and "what JE does" are not the same thing (even if there is considerable overlap).

Although it's true that JE has always acknowledged that he has no real control over who might come through, or what information he might get, that never prevents him from asking for certain things, and very often his request, e.g. for more information or something, is honored by spirit.

Again, perhaps I have just learned something! I always took JE's disclaimer to mean "I have no control over who comes through". You think this means "I have influence, but cannot make guarantees". These are not the same statement - do you have any references for your interpretation? Has JE made it clear that the spirits "listen" to his requests sometimes? How would he know this? What tests has he devised and undertaken to establish this?

I agree that these inconsistencies from one medium to another makes it extremely difficult indeed to establish a viable method of testing, and that's why I sometimes doubt that mediumship will ever be scientifically proven to be real.

I agree with every word of this - well, except for the one single solitary word "sometimes". I actually doubt this all the time!

Maybe it's just me, but I think there's a world of difference between being able to show JE a piece of sheet music, which he undoubtedly can recognize even in a quick psychic flash, and sending a series of 10 inch high letters in an effort to spell out words and sentences.

"a quick psychic flash"...now, really, how do we know it's a "flash"? But I digress - yes, I agree there's a world of difference. Especially notable would the difference in levels of ambiguity! How about a single sheet of white paper, with just two letters on it - the initials of the deceased. Would that be so hard? Gee, the spirits can show him a book so that he can read the title and author! They can show him pages with enough detial that he can tell the difference between musical notation and newsprint. What's so damn hard about a sheet of paper with 2 letters on it? The spirit, the sitter and JE all have letters within their "frame of reference" - it's clean, it's simple, it's unambiguous, and it's 'not possible'. Now why might that be....

But then, what do either of us know? We're not psychic mediums.

But then why take his word for it?

 

[Mike D.]

I agree with every word of this - well, except for the one single solitary word "sometimes". I actually doubt this all the time!

Loki,

Do you feel that scientifically testing mediums is a worthwhile endeavor?

Mike

 

[Loki]

Mike D.

Do you feel that scientifically testing mediums is a worthwhile endeavor?

If it is/was done in a process something like the Ganzfeld studies then yes. Persistence, repeated research with an attempt to review and tighten methodology - and a focus on using separate methodologies to test and control for different aspects of "mediumship". The ad hoc nature of things like the Arizona trials seem to be little more than publicity machines for the psychic industry.

Personally, I wonder why the "psychic industry" is so disinterested in proving their claims?

 

[RC]

Clancie,

I really mean it when I'm surprised that you and Neo haven't seen JE talk about how he gets names. I have watched the show a million times and always hear him talk about "seeing" the letters and I've even heard him say that he doesn't "hear" spirits talk. Perhaps I'll have to start watching again, but for now I stand behind my comments. I am thinking of a very specific reading. He was reading this ditzy woman whose friend had died. JE kept trying to bring through a "T" name. The woman insisted that her friend was telling JE that she would meet a T guy as some love interest, but JE wouldn't go there. But JE did say that the spirit was getting "louder". She asked what he meant and he said that he was "seeing" the letter "T" getting bigger and bigger. I've also heard him answer a question from the audience about what is meant when he says "they're getting louder" and he clarified that what he was "seeing" is getting bigger and bigger. Maybe he said it in my seminar.

Anyway, regarding AIDS. AIDS is not transmitted by blood. I am assuming that you (and maybe JE ) are talking about HIV. HIV and AIDS aren't the same thing. I know that you know that, but it's important to me that we are accurate when talking about HIV and AIDS. Also, I think it's rather unimpressive that a medium would get all "blood-related" illnesses with the same symbol. Why does George Anderson see the word "AIDS" but JE can only get that someone died of AIDS....leukemia....hepatitis...and don't forget that he adds overdoses in this category. Maybe that's why GA gets $1,000 and JE only $300?

 

[neofight]

Neo, I think you are missing something very big in JE's work. He was asked once if he "hears" or "sees" the initials, and he answered that he "sees" them. He went on to say that when he says that a spirit is "getting louder" he really means that he's "seeing" the letter getting bigger and bigger. He has said this many times and I'm really surprised you haven't caught it.

I challenge that idea, RC. It was my impression that JE "hears" the initials and names, although I agreed that there were a couple of times when a mental visual was involved, as in the case of that "T" that kept getting bigger and bigger.

AIDS IS NOT AN IRREGULARITY OF THE BLOOD!!!!!!!

RC, you don't have to shout! lol I understand this. So does JE. Still, medically accurate or not, that is the symbol that JE gets, and has always gotten for AIDS, leukemia, and I think even drug overdoses. If you did a blood test for any one of these three things, the results would be highly irregular. That is all this signifies to JE. Nothing more.

Please don't go all literal on me, RC. That's what Claus is for. This is symbolism we are talking about here......neo

 

[Clancie]

Posted by RC

AIDS is not transmitted by blood. I am assuming that you (and maybe JE ) are talking about HIV. HIV and AIDS aren't the same thing. I know that you know that, but it's important to me that we are accurate when talking about HIV and AIDS.

You know, RC, I should know this, but I'm thinking about it and may be confused. Since I agree 100% that it's important to be accurate, so I'll just ask you here. (Understanding HIV/AIDS seems more important than understanding JE's process anyway).

Basically, HIV is the virus and can be transmitted by body fluids, right? Primarily through blood and sexual contact.

The virus can weaken the immune system and then various diseases can take advantage of that weakness. These are used to identify someone as having AIDS. Is that right so far?

As far as blood goes...HIV is what can be transmitted by blood, but not AIDS itself since that's the after-effect of infection, so to speak, when the immune system is weakened and disease sets in.

So, is that why I'm wrong (like JE) in saying AIDS (rather than HIV) is blood-related?

If so, I totally should have been more careful in accurately distinguishing between HIV and AIDS.

However, as far as JE goes, I'm not so sure. After all, since he's really just using a personal symbol that helps him tell a sitter, "Your friend/relative had AIDS", do you really think it matters if he distinguishes between HIV and AIDS in his symbols? For example, seeing AIDS as a "blood disorder" may be medically totally wrong, but its his own personal symbol that lets gets him to "AIDS" in his readings. Somehow that seems different to me than if the rest of us misuse it.

As for Karen....Well, her reading for you always sounds so much better than JE, but personally whenever I hear about a "long lingering illness" I always think of Robert Brown's similar description which always seems a safe bet to cover the final months of a lot of people who died from varied illnesses. To me, it would have sounded more specific if RB'd said "blood disease like AIDS" rather than just "a long and difficult illness that sapped energy".