Interesting JE Hits....

Clancie said:
"Any", meaning "psychic surgery" as well?

Sure.

Clancie said:
I don't think neo did that at all, Claus. She just summarized your views and what you want to see from mediums to get you to think of it differently.

She summarized wrong.

Clancie said:
Seems her summary is accurate and fair, too. Do you disagree with any of the particulars of her example?

Her example is hypothetical. It would be far better if she chose a real example. That she has to invent scenarios to describe how I would react only confirms my suspicion that she has run out of arguments. Now, she doesn't argue from what has happened, but what could happen. That's pretty lame.

Catching up a bit:
  • Why do you gloss over "details" in the "Milk from Cow"-reading, when you focus on "details" in other readings? Isn't this inconsistent?
  • What will invalidate a sitter's validation?
  • Why are you so against independent verification?
  • Why do you insist that the memory of the sitter is good enough, even though you admit it can be faulty? It seems to be as if you believe that whatever is remembered is also what actually happened, but at the same time also believe (and rightly so) that memory is faulty.
  • How can you deal with this double-thinking in your everyday life?
  • How can the sitter tell the truth, when his statements contradict each other?
It would be nice if you would answer the questions the first time, so we won't have to waste time reading them twice. If you don't want to answer these, just say so.
 
Claus,

The fact - and it is a fact - remains:

We cannot trust the sitters. They change their stories.
I know you're a stickler for making sure that *everything* that someone says is *exactly* what they mean, so ... surely what you mean is :

The fact - and it is a fact - remains:

We cannot trust the sitters. They may change their stories. We know this because some have done so.


Your original statement makes it appear that you consider it a fact that (by implication) all sitters change their stories. Just a minor point and all, but I know you demand accuracy, accuracy, and more accuracy...
 
Neofight,

For those who do not even accept the [possibility that mediumship is exactly what John says it is, with images, and symbolism that is subject to interpretation by the medium, none of this will ever make the least bit of sense.
Err...no! It makes perfect sense within a framework of coldreading.

On the other hand, for those of us who believe that it just might be real, this is such a cool validation and it shows exactly how the process of mediumship works.
To be precise, we are talking about JE's own personal version of mediumship - there are plenty of mediums who (claim they) can do things that JE says are not possible. Really, "mediumship" is an umbrella term in which each active participant defines their own particular set of rules. Each medium seems to have their own peculiar "process".

But what does this "show exactly" about the process? JE "gets" fatal blow on the head, pet rabbit. Fine - dead magician matches I guess. But why why why can't JE get letters? The spirits can "show" him a rabbit? Why not show him white boards containing the letters "M" "A" "G" "I" "C" "I" "A" "N", followed by "U" "N" "C" "L" "E" "F" "R" "E" "D". Are letters not in JE's 'frame of reference'? Can't spirits spell? Why not show him a pet rabbit with the word "FRED" on it?

JE has said that the spirits are showing him "sheet music". That's paper. Obviously, he was able to tell the difference between "sheet music" and "newspaper" and "school exam paper". I guess he saw a piece of paper containing staves, notes, and cleffs. Yet they can't get a plain piece of paper with a 10 inch high "A" across to John?

What is it about the "process" that this hit shows us? Simply that if the sitter recognises the images, it's a hit (we've seen that plenty of times). If the sitter doesn't, JE tries a variation (we've seen that plenty of times), or drops it entirely (we've seen that plenty of times). He then might ask them to "review" this later (we've seen that plenty of times). What precisely is the process then?????
 
Loki,

You're right, it should be:

Sitters may change their stories. We know this because some have done so. And we don't know who else does.

Therefore, we cannot rely on sitter validation at all. We need independent validation.

("Stickler"? I'll come after you...! :D)
 
Loki said:
Neofight,


Err...no! It makes perfect sense within a framework of coldreading.


As you already know, Loki, I agree with that statement, but only to a very limited degree. :D

To be precise, we are talking about JE's own personal version of mediumship - there are plenty of mediums who (claim they) can do things that JE says are not possible. Really, "mediumship" is an umbrella term in which each active participant defines their own particular set of rules. Each medium seems to have their own peculiar "process".


Well, no. Now that I don't really agree with, Loki. Who are these "plenty of mediums" who claim they can do things that JE says are not possible? You'll have to clarify that for me.

As far as I can tell from reading about George Anderson, and from watching James Van Praagh do readings on his show, "Beyond", the process is pretty similar from one medium to another, although I believe that they each have their strong suits as well as their weak areas.

But what does this "show exactly" about the process? JE "gets" fatal blow on the head, pet rabbit. Fine - dead magician matches I guess. But why why why can't JE get letters? The spirits can "show" him a rabbit? Why not show him white boards containing the letters "M" "A" "G" "I" "C" "I" "A" "N", followed by "U" "N" "C" "L" "E" "F" "R" "E" "D". Are letters not in JE's 'frame of reference'? Can't spirits spell? Why not show him a pet rabbit with the word "FRED" on it?

Fair question, Loki, but not being a medium myself, I can't really answer it for you. I don't know why mediums don't seem to get letters, but as a rule, they don't.

In theory, since the spirits tend to give information that is within the medium's own personal frame of reference, I'd guess that the rabbit, (presumably a white rabbit) was within JE's frame of reference that would indicate something magic or magician-related. JE does not have white boards with the words "magician" or "Uncle Fred" within his own frame of reference.

If the spirits were capable of giving mediums letters or whole words, then they would probably be able to give them complete paragraphs as well, and there wouldn't be all this difficulty in conveying the right message to their loved ones.

JE has said that the spirits are showing him "sheet music". That's paper. Obviously, he was able to tell the difference between "sheet music" and "newspaper" and "school exam paper". I guess he saw a piece of paper containing staves, notes, and cleffs. Yet they can't get a plain piece of paper with a 10 inch high "A" across to John?

Again, I'm sure that JE has at some point in his 34 years laid his eyes upon a piece of sheet music, so it's logical that he would understand this reference if that is what he was being shown.

What is it about the "process" that this hit shows us? Simply that if the sitter recognises the images, it's a hit (we've seen that plenty of times). If the sitter doesn't, JE tries a variation (we've seen that plenty of times), or drops it entirely (we've seen that plenty of times). He then might ask them to "review" this later (we've seen that plenty of times). What precisely is the process then?????

Well, I've watched my share of readings, Loki, and I disagree with people who say that JE gets a lot of misses. Most information that JE gives to a particular sitter is validated, and validated right at that moment.

True, sometimes JE does not interpret the image or message perfectly, and it is the sitter who clarifies the subtlety or specificity of the information as it relates to themselves, since they are the only ones who know their friends, family and past experiences, and not JE. I don't believe he is reading the sitters' minds.....neo
 
neofight said:
Well, no. Now that I don't really agree with, Loki. Who are these "plenty of mediums" who claim they can do things that JE says are not possible? You'll have to clarify that for me.

Sylvia Browne. James van Praagh. Rosemary Altea. They all say they know what life is like on the other side. JE says he doesn't.

neofight said:
Fair question, Loki, but not being a medium myself, I can't really answer it for you. I don't know why mediums don't seem to get letters, but as a rule, they don't.

Yes, they do. All the time. But only first names, neo.

neofight said:
In theory, since the spirits tend to give information that is within the medium's own personal frame of reference, I'd guess that the rabbit, (presumably a white rabbit) was within JE's frame of reference that would indicate something magic or magician-related. JE does not have white boards with the words "magician" or "Uncle Fred" within his own frame of reference.

But JE also refers to something that is not within his own fram of reference. How do you explain that?

neofight said:
If the spirits were capable of giving mediums letters or whole words, then they would probably be able to give them complete paragraphs as well, and there wouldn't be all this difficulty in conveying the right message to their loved ones.

Indeed. What is the more likely, JE cold reading or JE talking to dead people?

neofight said:
Again, I'm sure that JE has at some point in his 34 years laid his eyes upon a piece of sheet music, so it's logical that he would understand this reference if that is what he was being shown.

I'm also sure that JE has at some point in his 34 years growing up and living in a city with the largest Jewish population in the US noticed a thing or two about Jewish customs. Right?

neofight said:
Well, I've watched my share of readings, Loki, and I disagree with people who say that JE gets a lot of misses.

How do you know that? You have admitted that we don't see the whole reading. This is a question you never got around to:

If a reading at CO happens to be 30 minutes long, what happens to the 19 minutes of the reading, neo? We get perhaps 11 minutes of reading, so what happens to the remaining 19 minutes?

neofight said:
Most information that JE gives to a particular sitter is validated, and validated right at that moment.

But we have found out that sitters cannot be relied upon. Sometimes, they do not tell the truth. And we don't know when they do.

neofight said:
I don't believe he is reading the sitters' minds.....neo

Why not? Why is this impossible?
 
Posted by CFLarsen

Sylvia Browne. James van Praagh. Rosemary Altea. They all say they know what life is like on the other side
Well, Sylvia's views are well known, with books describing in much detail life on the other side.

What do JVP and Rosemary Altea say about it, Claus?
 
Clancie,

JVP refers heavily to the Christian bible, albeit with references to common New Age beliefs. RA claims that nobody has diseases "Over There", so she agrees with SB on that one.

I'm actually a little shocked to learn that you know nothing of e.g. JVP's claims. Surely you haven't based your assessment that he is a fake on his readings alone?

I thought you had studied this a lot??
 
Well, I'm actually wondering what specifics you are basing your claim about JVP and Altea on.

And, so far, I don't find the examples you just gave very contradictory with JE.

After all, what psychic has ever said they do have diseases over there? JE apparently agrees with that, too, since he's often says they're not still suffering from the physical problems they had here. I don't see how he disagrees with Altea from the example you gave so far.

And how does JVP use the Bible in describing "the other side"? God? Angels? Heaven? What are you referring to that contradicts JE?
 
It's true that most mental mediums seem to use the same "process". However, I've never heard anyone except JE use this "frame of reference" argument. I'm very suspicious of this particular claim.

The medium I went to was able to get the word "Clarendon". This word is part of a meaningful joke between my partner and I. We were the only 2 people who would know about that joke. I highly doubt that Karen has a "frame of reference" of a white board with the word "Clarendon", but somehow she was able to say it.

Neo, I really don't understand this frame of reference argument at all. Surely JE has read the word "Uncle" and the word "Fred" at one time in his life, so the words are indeed in his frame of reference. It just doesn't fly. Also, did you just state that spirits aren't able to give letters? They do it all the time with JE. He claims that when a spirit is "shouting" a "T" name, that he is "seeing" the letter T getting bigger and bigger. So if a spirit can give one letter, why can't they give four of them to spell the name "Fred"...and then go on to spell a few words to make a sentence?
 
Clancie said:
Well, I'm actually wondering what specifics you are basing your claim about JVP and Altea on.

You can check their websites, if you don't believe me. I have books, too, but if you don't have them, you probably won't believe me...

Clancie said:
And, so far, I don't find the examples you just gave very contradictory with JE.

No? JE claims not to know what is on the other side. These skeptics do. That's contradictory, Clancie.

Clancie said:
After all, what psychic has ever said they do have diseases over there? JE apparently agrees with that, too, since he's often says they're not still suffering from the physical problems they had here. I don't see how he disagrees with Altea from the example you gave so far.

So, JE knows what life is like on the other side?? I'm confused...as I am sure you are.

Clancie said:
And how does JVP use the Bible in describing "the other side"? God? Angels? Heaven? What are you referring to that contradicts JE?

My point is - again - that JVP knows what goes on over there. JE doesn't.

Or does he? Perhaps we are dealing with yet-another-JE-contradiction??
 
neofight said:
...snip...

As far as I can tell from reading about George Anderson, and from watching James Van Praagh do readings on his show, "Beyond", the process is pretty similar from one medium to another, although I believe that they each have their strong suits as well as their weak areas.

...snip...

In theory, since the spirits tend to give information that is within the medium's own personal frame of reference, I'd guess that the rabbit, (presumably a white rabbit) was within JE's frame of reference that would indicate something magic or magician-related. JE does not have white boards with the words "magician" or "Uncle Fred" within his own frame of reference.

If the spirits were capable of giving mediums letters or whole words, then they would probably be able to give them complete paragraphs as well, and there wouldn't be all this difficulty in conveying the right message to their loved ones.

...snip...

Neo are you surprised to find that at least one very well known medium Doris Stokes had a very different process...

A quote here from one of the sites that features her, itself quoting form one of her books her:

http://the-psychics.co.uk/doris-stokes.htm


...snip...

She recalls in her book 'In My Ear' "The bedroom door flew open so sharply I thought it was my mother bursting in, and there stood my father. My mouth dropped open. He looked as real and solid as he did when he was alive... "Dad?" I whispered " I never lied to you, did I Doll? he asked. "I don't think so". I said. " I'm not lying to you now. John is not with us and on Christmas day you will have proof of this." Then as I watched, he vanished. Three days later the War Office informed her that her husband John was dead. To everyone's amazement she refused to believe it. She clung to her hopes. Just as her father had predicted her husband was found, although badly injured but alive and she was indeed notified on Christmas day.

Doris Stokes popularised mediumship and was an inspiration to many to develop their own psychic ability.

...snip...

Any comments about this very clear cut type of mediumship? Doris didn't have to scramble for meanings of symbols, she didn’t have to have a “personal frame of reference” - she heard the spirits speak as clearly as she heard the living....

And Doris isn't alone in claiming a very different process to JEs..

The best known current UK psychic Derek Acorah

http://the-psychics.co.uk/derek-acorah.htm
...snip...

Derek trusts implicitly in his Spirit guide 'Sam' ,

...snip...

often taking on the physical characteristics of a passed loved one with a comic effect (Darat: by the way he isn't a trance medium he does this all without the add of safety trance ;) )

...snip...

It would seem many mediums don't follow the "process" you seem to believe exists.
 
Posted by CFLarsen

I have books (re JVP and Altea), too, but if you don't have them, you probably won't believe me.


Sure I will, Claus, as long as you mention which book the info comes from. :)
 
Graham Bishop (see article here) specifically claims to hear spirits talk to him - sometimes even so clear that it is like shouting.

No mention of "personal frame of reference" here either.
 
Clancie said:
Sure I will, Claus, as long as you mention which book the info comes from. :)

Go take a look at the websites first and tell me if I am wrong. I'm quite frankly a bit tired of offering you evidence that you never look at.
 
No, Claus. You said you have books with specific examples of Altea and JVP which you'd reference if I'd accept them.

I accept them. Where are they?
 
Clancie said:
No, Claus. You said you have books with specific examples of Altea and JVP which you'd reference if I'd accept them.

I accept them. Where are they?

You have a backlog of evidence you asked for but never looked at.

E.g.:
  • Recordings of Graham Bishop. You never bothered to listen to them.
  • Evidence of your lies. You never bothered to read them (and lied about it, as well)

Have you been to their websites? Am I wrong?
 
Claus,
Posted by CFLarsen

You have a backlog of evidence you asked for but never looked at.

Recordings of Graham Bishop. You never bothered to listen to them.

Evidence of your lies. You never bothered to read them (and lied about it, as well)


FYI, I listened to your audio file of Bishop. It was totally garbled. Not a word was intelligible.

Re: my "lies" and your 94mb file of all the TVT threads. Enough already.

Re: Altea and JVP and the "books" you say you have of theirs. You seem to be stalling.

Is this going to be like that memorable TVTalk weekend when you claimed to have read JE's books, disappeared for two days, then reemerged--finally--with some actual quotes?

I mean, how hard is it to pull out a book from the shelf and quote whatever it is you're thinking of re: JVP and Altea? (Of course, it becomes very difficult if you don't actually have the books you're claiming you do).

I said I'd accept your quotes from the JVP and Altea books you have if you source them, and I will. Got any?

Oh well, if not, by tomorrow you should be able to get to a bookstore or library and find something. :rolleyes: I won't hold my breath that you're going to go ahead and post any actual quotes from your "books of theirs" today....
 
Rosemary Altea discusses some of her "process" here:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/15/lkl.00.html

and here

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0212/13/lkl.00.html

and here

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0106/05/lkl.00.html

and here, in an incident that illustrates how Altea's cold reading method works, even though it's in her own book and we have no idea what actually happened at the original meeting

http://67.120.246.148/practice/book_excerpts/otherrealms/channeling/altea/own_power_one.asp

John Edward:

http://www.nytix.com/TVShows/NewYork/JohnEdward/transcripts/

Basically I act as a bridge, I go between the physical world and the non-physical world. And what I do -- I'm somewhat of a waiter -- I go to the other side, not literally go there, but I go to the other side and get information and I bring it out and I serve my client the information and hope that they understand it.
KING: From the various people who communicate to you. How do they communicate to you?

EDWARD: They communicate with an energy and what happens is the energy comes to me.

KING: Into words?

EDWARD: Well, it comes in three different ways: clairvoyance, clairaudience and clairsentience -- and what that means is that I see pictures; I hear -- I don't want to say voices but I hear thoughts. I'm hearing in my -- for example, if you count, in your mind, from one to ten, that voice that you are hearing in your mind is how I receive the information. Except that I have two voices happening at the same time, so I have to learn how to fine-tune it and listen to it and then I get feelings or sensations. What I do in my frame of reference is that interpret what it is that I am seeing, hearing, and feeling and try to give it to the client and hopefully they understand it. Many times they don't. Many times I say please write this down and they'll validate it for me later. Well they might be aware of it at the moment and it might come out later for them when they talk to mom or they talk to dad.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/06/lkl.00.html

KING: What -- do you see something, or do you hear? What...

EDWARD: I think a big misconception with this work is that people think that a psychic or a medium -- I'm seeing them like I'm seeing you.

And I can only speak for myself. I don't want to speak in broad strokes for every medium that's out there, of which there are many around the world that are equally as talented who might not ever sit in front of a camera or write a book or go on the radio, they just do their thing.

But I don't see them the way I'm seeing you, because they're not of the physical world. They're vibrating at a higher frequency. It's kind of like taking a helicopter blade, you know, when it's not airborne, you can look and see there's four or five blades. Once it takes off and those blades are moving at an accelerated rate, at a higher frequency, you can't really see it, yet we know it's still there.

It's kind of like that. And I will see images in my mind. I will hear things, thoughts in my mind. And I will get clear sentient feelings.

So basically I'm seeing, hearing and feeling energy that I'm interpreting in my own frame of references. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong.

KING: These dead people are somewhere? Or are they in some sort of spirit, ghostly world?

EDWARD: I think that they're in a different dimension. But I think it's a dimension that coexists in some way with ours.

KING: Not in a physical body?

EDWARD: Not in a physical body. It's more of an energy body. It's more an energy world.

Again, you know, one of the things that I use as an example, is when somebody is having a hard time, you know, especially after some of the events that we've all lived through, explaining death to a child. You know, kids don't accept the answer anymore, this person is in heaven. Now they want to know, how do you get there? Why can't we go there?

So I feel like, you know, we need to kind of help explain a little bit better where heaven might be for that person in their belief system. And I use the example of a glass. I say, when we're born, you know, this is our body and, you know, God pours the soul into the body. Over a lifetime, what happens to that water? A child would knows through school that it evaporates and that it changes form. Why? Because they have been taught that. They're taught that the water will change form and it will evaporate.

And it kind of lets them know that the energy, the soul that evaporates out of the body is like the air and it's all around them. And it's much more comforting for a child to know that their grandfather is all around them, rather than that far-off place, heaven, that they want to know how to get there.

KING: I understand that. But how can that soul, spirit speak to you?

EDWARD: Well, they can't speak to me in the way that we're speaking.

KING: So what are you hearing when you...

EDWARD: A misconception is that it's a voice that I'm actually getting.

It's thought. It's kind of like, you know, you're married. You have a relationship with your wife. You guys can finish each other's sentences. You guys can have a conversation that an outside person will look and be like, they're not talking like normal people would talk, because you've built up an energy bridge.

What happens as a medium, you kind of act as a conduit and they kind of project their thoughts to you as if I was a radio. So they project their energy, and I'm able to pick that up and hopefully interpret it correctly. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
 

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