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Indivisibility

BACK ON TOPIC

So, now, is anyone here willing to address the OP without relating knowledge of sensed-things (QM) to that post?

Remember this:
Things "out there" either have concrete extension of being through 4 dimensions, or they do not exist... and there is no "out there".
It's as simple as that.
 
lifegazer said:
Energy has a source.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Powerplants are not a source of energy, they merely convert stored energy to electrical energy. There is no such thing as a source of energy, just as there is no such thing as a source of an electrical charge.


Non-determinable energy has a source with free-will.

In this universe, there is no such thing as "non-determinable energy". There is only energy. There are no different kinds of energy in this universe, energy is energy is energy.


A source with free-will is a primal-cause.

And, once again, the concept of a primal-cause is not compatible with QM.

Add to this, that in your philosophy, both matter and energy are IMAGINED properties. Not only are they not real in your philosophy, but they also have absolutely no bearing on the reality of the mind.
 
Re: BACK ON TOPIC

lifegazer said:
So, now, is anyone here willing to address the OP without relating knowledge of sensed-things (QM) to that post?

Remember this:
Things "out there" either have concrete extension of being through 4 dimensions, or they do not exist... and there is no "out there".
It's as simple as that.

Wait...you are trying to argue that sensed things (QM) prove your point, but you are insisting that any counter arguments not reference sensed things?


Are you willing to address yesterday's post?
 
Re: BACK ON TOPIC

lifegazer said:
Remember this:
Things "out there" either have concrete extension of being through 4 dimensions, or they do not exist... and there is no "out there".
It's as simple as that.
I wonder if it would just be worth it to make a new tag for the board that just prints the words "False dichotomy" or "You're lack of understanding on how physics works is truly astounding"? Would it actually save any time? hm...
 
Re: BACK ON TOPIC

RussDill said:
Wait...you are trying to argue that sensed things (QM) prove your point, but you are insisting that any counter arguments not reference sensed things?
QM proves the existence of a primal-cause, but that is an aside from the OP.
Are you willing to address yesterday's post?
I want to get back on track. I think my OP is a very credible proof for the non-existence of an external reality.
I do intend to discuss QM in greater detail in the near future.
 
Re: Re: BACK ON TOPIC

Upchurch said:
I wonder if it would just be worth it to make a new tag for the board that just prints the words "False dichotomy" or "You're lack of understanding on how physics works is truly astounding"? Would it actually save any time? hm...
What's physics got to do with it? Have you not been reading these posts, or what?
 
Re: Re: Re: BACK ON TOPIC

lifegazer said:
What's physics got to do with it? Have you not been reading these posts, or what?
You said, and I quote,
Things "out there" either have concrete extension of being through 4 dimensions, or they do not exist... and there is no "out there".
This is not only referring to physics, but it is referring to it out of gross incompetence of the subject matter. Even more so, I suppose, if you don't even realize you were referring to physics.

I feel a skit coming on...

L: (points at chair) look at that chicken!
U: Boy, you don't know much about poultry.
L: Who is talking about poultry? I'm talking about that chicken! (points at chair again)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: BACK ON TOPIC

Upchurch said:

L: (points at chair) look at that chicken!
U: Boy, you don't know much about poultry.
L: Who is talking about poultry? I'm talking about that chicken! (points at chair again)

well put.
 
Re: Re: BACK ON TOPIC

Upchurch said:
I wonder if it would just be worth it to make a new tag for the board that just prints the words "False dichotomy" or "You're lack of understanding on how physics works is truly astounding"? Would it actually save any time? hm...

You could make a 'no understanding of physics' smily.
 
What exists "out there"?

Well?
99.99% of the people here think that an external reality exists.

Will one of you please tell me what they think it is. It must be tangibly real, so none of this "It's a probability graph" nonsense, please.
How can you believe in a reality and not know what it is you believe in?
 
Re: What exists "out there"?

lifegazer said:
Well?
99.99% of the people here think that an external reality exists.

They find a monism model of reality best fits the evidence. They see no need to throw in some great mind, unless they find evidence that points that way. I can also say that 99.99% of people here don't think ceramic tea cups are currently orbiting neptune. If someone starting claiming so, I think they would need to provide some good evidence.


Will one of you please tell me what they think it is. It must be tangibly real

Tangible simply means that it is part of our reality, part of our universe.


so none of this "It's a probability graph" nonsense, please.

So now QM is nonsense too? I'm really confused.


How can you believe in a reality and not know what it is you believe in?

come again?
 
Re: Re: BACK ON TOPIC

Ahh. Sorry guys, I needed a break. After a week of work, I'm refreshed and ready for a new thread. Yet I see it's the same old thing. Whatever.


lifegazer said:
I think my OP is a very credible proof for the non-existence of an external reality. I do intend to discuss QM in greater detail in the near future.


I must* say, your OP is an interesting thought experiment, but it's hardly proof of anything, and it really doesn't lead very far.

Your argument fails pretty much from the beginning, when you conclude without proof that the final particle of whatever it was you divided into ever smaller pieces must of necessity occupy null spacetime. Prove that first, then we can address the remaining flaws. Remember, show your work.


Aw hell, why wait? Let's address one of the other flaws too.

Some might object: "What happens if all objects are infinitely divisible?"
The simple answer to that is that if this is the case, then no singular finite objects actually exist in reality. Either they do or they don't. If they don't, then bang goes your reality of singular entities separated by spacetime

Again, a huge leap from premise to conclusion. What is it about my reality that relies upon your definition of singular entities separated by spacetime? By my reality I'm of course referring to what appears to me to be real, the sensed universe as you so fondly put it. Give me a concrete reason to accept that what I experience as the universe is merely an illusion created by sensation internal only to myself. Saying that a reality outside of myself isn't necessary is not the same as proving that it doesn't exist. If you want me to accept your philosophy, you have to provide evidence convincing enough for me to reject the universe I seem to already know. I'd be willing to believe you if you were to present a convincing, continuous progression from premise to conclusion, but you haven't yet, and frankly I don't believe you can.

*I'm just being polite here, I didn't really have to say it.
 
Note, once more, how his OP directly relates to science and physics - they being the study of the order between sensed-things - since he asked, specifically, about a 'thing' whose only existence is that which we have 'sensed'. But he doesn't want science or physics brought into the discussion!

Note, also, how he astutely ignores addressing the points raised by myself and others, and simply tries to get people to play by his own rules.

"Here, fellows, we're going to play baseball. But I'm the only one who can use a bat, ball, glove, or run the bases; you guys just stand there and cheer. OK? Now, I can beat you all in baseball!!! See?"

Yep - it's that simple.

BTW - LG - You are not the 'primal cause' of your sensations. You are the receptor, processor, and experiencer of said sensations, which are biochemical signals processed by the neural system within the body that is you, in response to / caused by series of external stimuli that act upon specific bodily systems which you possess. In other words, things beyond you are the cause of your sensations.

If you reject this concept, you must demonstrate what the cause of said sensations are, in a concrete and tangible fashion. Further, you must define and demonstrate, in a concrete and tangible fashion, the mechanism of the generation, transmission, translation, and experience of said sensations, concretely and tangibly. If you insist on rejecting reality as experienced through the senses, you must provide concrete and tangible evidence of a reality beyond the senses, and this must be incontravertable, logical, and consistant evidence. Now, I agree that reason and logic are the only tools one has to determine the nature of things beyond our senses of them; however, if you also remove sensory experience from the foundations behind reason and logic, you are left with nothing at all.

At best, you are trying, hope against hope, to demonstrate logical inconsistancies in this reality (your 'sensed-reality') - yet EVERY attempt you have made to do so has shown that you lack a fundamental grasp of logic, reason, or even the basics of the very concepts you attempt to argue against.

LG - "Look, reality cannot exist because clearly one plus one cannot equal 19."
US - "But one plus one equals two!"
LG - "Yes, but in my definition of sensed-reality, one plus one equals 19 - which it clearly cannot do, therefore, sensed reality is false!!"
US - "... what?"

Case in point: infinite space and the implications of distance between fixed points.

Case in point: the existence of hypothetical objects whose dimensions are less than the spacetime they hypothetically occupy.

Case in point: difficulties reconciling a non-dimensional mathematical 'point' with real objects occupying infinite points in real spacetime.

And the list goes on and on and on...

If I wanted to argue the qualities of baroque architecture versus gothic architecture, I'd first have to fully understand and appreciate both styles of architecture. If you want to argue the qualities of physics, mathematics, QM, and the science of the sensed-reality, then you have to first fully understand and appreciate these things. Until you do - you are arguing from the void, a voice of ignorance bleating like a lamb in the field.

"On yer knees, plonker."
 
zaayrdragon said:
Note, once more, how his OP directly relates to science and physics - they being the study of the order between sensed-things - since he asked, specifically, about a 'thing' whose only existence is that which we have 'sensed'. But he doesn't want science or physics brought into the discussion!
Time to end this stupidity...

Quantum physics refers to the fundamental energy of the entity which creates the sensations and why that energy is essentially non-determinable.
Awareness is essentially non-spatial which accounts for quantum non-locality of sensed-effects within awareness.
In other words, quantum-physics - relating to sensed existence in a non-spatial awareness - cannot relate to a REALITY of space beyond the sense of it.
Quantum physics cannot relate to a world "out there"!!

You keep asserting that those trees and stars and people you sense actually ALSO exist BEYOND your perception of them: "out there".
... If you believe this, then you must believe in the concrete reality of matter in real spacetime. There is no other option. Quantum considerations do not apply.

Hence, address my OP or give-up on your beliefs in the "out there".
 
lifegazer said:
Time to end this stupidity...

Quantum physics refers to the fundamental energy of the entity which creates the sensations and why that energy is essentially non-determinable.
Awareness is essentially non-spatial which accounts for quantum non-locality of sensed-effects within awareness.
In other words, quantum-physics - relating to sensed existence in a non-spatial awareness - cannot relate to a REALITY of space beyond the sense of it.
Quantum physics cannot relate to a world "out there"!!

You keep asserting that those trees and stars and people you sense actually ALSO exist BEYOND your perception of them: "out there".
... If you believe this, then you must believe in the concrete reality of matter in real spacetime. There is no other option. Quantum considerations do not apply.

Hence, address my OP or give-up on your beliefs in the "out there".

So why do you keep trying to use your garbled misunderstanding of QM as a proof of your so-called philosophy?

By the way, why do you trust your memory telling you that you have dreamed when you don't trust your senses?
 
lifegazer said:
Time to end this stupidity...

Quantum physics refers to the fundamental energy of the entity which creates the sensations and why that energy is essentially non-determinable.
Awareness is essentially non-spatial which accounts for quantum non-locality of sensed-effects within awareness.
In other words, quantum-physics - relating to sensed existence in a non-spatial awareness - cannot relate to a REALITY of space beyond the sense of it.
Quantum physics cannot relate to a world "out there"!!

You keep asserting that those trees and stars and people you sense actually ALSO exist BEYOND your perception of them: "out there".
... If you believe this, then you must believe in the concrete reality of matter in real spacetime. There is no other option. Quantum considerations do not apply.

Hence, address my OP or give-up on your beliefs in the "out there".

Note, once again, the subject changes the... er... subject. I never mentioned quantum physics - just physics and science - yet he harps upon QM in his reply.

Also, I never said anything other than that I believe that those trees and stars exist as actual matter in a reality of real spacetime. I never mentioned quantum considerations.

In his desperation, he ends up making even more of an ass of himself. Funny - all we have to do is feed him rope, and he fashions his own noose!
 
Re: BACK ON TOPIC

lifegazer said:
So, now, is anyone here willing to address the OP without relating knowledge of sensed-things (QM) to that post?

Remember this:
Things "out there" either have concrete extension of being through 4 dimensions, or they do not exist... and there is no "out there".
It's as simple as that.

Lifegazer, in the second case the universe is an illusion in four dimensions. God presents a 4-D space to our senses, therefore, to us it is a 4-D space in every way discernable. In it, all things can hold positions in all four presented dimensions.
This presented space must either be continuous or discrete. In the former case it is infinitely divisible, in the latter it is not.
Whether it is or not does not affect its potential to exist.

The real question is: What is the difference between a real external universe and an imaginary and apparently external universe?
 
lifegazer said:
You're hot favourite for winning plonker of the year, 2004.

And here, Noble Reader, the subject demonstrates the heights of his intellectual capacity for rational discussion: when faced with great adversity, resort to insults.

Quite clearly, the subject is unable to answer the charges levelled against him.

Now, if the subject had any honor whatsoever, he would address the very excellent point made by H'ethetheth:
What is the difference between a real external universe and an imaginary and apparently external universe?

----

Just as an aside, note that the subject's choice of insult, 'plonker', is yet more Cockney Rhyming slang, generally considered the mark of the uneducated and ignorant street person of England. Somewhat akin to having a philosophy discussion in America with someone who resorts to Eubonics when ruffled. Fo' shizzle mah nizzle....
 

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