Indivisibility

[H'ethetheth]

Now, if the subject had any honor whatsoever, he would address the very excellent point made by H'ethetheth:

You flatter me, but as you know I'm certainly not the first to ask this question.
It would be nice if lifegazer would tell us the difference though.
So I have a related question for lifegazer:

What is a space? I.e. what do you think a space is?

Take time to ponder the above, then read the following.

In my head a space is a thing that offers the possibility to its occupants to differ in some respect.
If the dimensions of a space are length, the difference is in position.
Your God presents us with the possibility to imagine we differ in position, does he not? What then is this imagined distance other than a spatial distance?

 

[lifegazer]

The real question is: What is the difference between a real external universe and an imaginary and apparently external universe?

I thought it was pretty obvious:-

A real universe
If a real universe exists beyond the sense of one, then "things" really do exist and are really separated from one another by space & time.
The universe has no purpose or meaning, and neither does humanity. In fact, 'self-awareness' is some kind of brain-generated illusion - there is no 'self'. It's a free-for-all where you should grab as much money and have as much fun as you possibly can before you melt away into the irrelevant end.

An illusory universe
'You' are God. You are not the "thing" you perceive yourself to be within the illusion. Fundamentally, 'You' created this illusion for a purpose and all of your choices are meaningful.
Nobody else but God exists. This is truly significant and your future should be devoted to eradicating all selfishness, war and injustice.

Those, briefly, are the primary differences.

 

[Jellby]

I thought it was pretty obvious:-

A real universe
If a real universe exists beyond the sense of one, then "things" really do exist and are really separated from one another by space & time.
The universe has no purpose or meaning, and neither does humanity. In fact, 'self-awareness' is some kind of brain-generated illusion - there is no 'self'. It's a free-for-all where you should grab as much money and have as much fun as you possibly can before you melt away into the irrelevant end.

An illusory universe
'You' are God. You are not the "thing" you perceive yourself to be within the illusion. Fundamentally, 'You' created this illusion for a purpose and all of your choices are meaningful.
Nobody else but God exists. This is truly significant and your future should be devoted to eradicating all selfishness, war and injustice.

Those, briefly, are the primary differences.

Why?

Why in an illusory universe you should eradicate selfishness, war and injustice, if they are all illusory as well? Why can't you just try to have as much fun as possible? If you're God, you can control your own illusion, why should you care about anything else?

If the universe is real, and the other beings you see are real and, you could guess, feel something similar to what you feel... why shouldn't you try to have as much fun as possible while at the same time trying to be nice to others and eradicate war and injustice?

 

[lifegazer]

Why?

Why in an illusory universe you should eradicate selfishness, war and injustice, if they are all illusory as well?

God is aware of everything that God creates. If there is pain and suffering in the world, then it is God who experiences it since there is nobody else.
The borders and gold that cause war are illusory, but the suffering and pain had by God because of the choice to fight, are not.

Why can't you just try to have as much fun as possible?

If you can have fun without harming anyone, then I'd agree.

If you're God, you can control your own illusion, why should you care about anything else?

How should God "control" that illusion?

If the universe is real, and the other beings you see are real and, you could guess, feel something similar to what you feel... why shouldn't you try to have as much fun as possible while at the same time trying to be nice to others and eradicate war and injustice?

It's impossible to eradicate war and injustice whilst, ultimately, everybody cares more about themselves (and their own family and their own friends and their own nation) than anyone else.

There are only two ways of seeing the Self:
(1) As you perceive or sense yourself, in relation to all others and every "thing" else.
(2) As God - the only existing entity.

Consequently, there are, essentially, only two ways to act:
(1) For your ego (the sensed-self).
(2) For God.

Only when the world recognises itself as God having that worldly experience, can one truly "Love thy neighbour as thyself."
... And only then can war, borders, poverty, injustice, inequality, racism and crime become obsolete.
... Only then can love and equality reign supreme.

 

[Wudang]

"How should God "control" that illusion?"

Well since you said he's the underlying principle of QM, pretty easily.


Of course it all relies on your theory that god can dream and since the evidence for dreams is a lot less solid than the evdience for a material world then I'm afaid we can't allow it.

 

[Cosmo]

A real universe
If a real universe exists beyond the sense of one, then "things" really do exist and are really separated from one another by space & time.

Agreed, up until this point.

The universe has no purpose or meaning, and neither does humanity. In fact, 'self-awareness' is some kind of brain-generated illusion - there is no 'self'. It's a free-for-all where you should grab as much money and have as much fun as you possibly can before you melt away into the irrelevant end.

Utter foolishness. Please provide *any* reason - the smallest scrap will do - of why you jumped from "things really do exist" to "let's kill each other". You have miserably failed to do so in the past; I suspect this will continue to be the case in the future.

An illusory universe
'You' are God. You are not the "thing" you perceive yourself to be within the illusion. Fundamentally, 'You' created this illusion for a purpose and all of your choices are meaningful.
Nobody else but God exists. This is truly significant and your future should be devoted to eradicating all selfishness, war and injustice.

How do you know all this? What evidence do you base these assertions on? Do you have any reason to think this to be true other than the fact that it works well with your "philosophy"? Once again, your failure to answer in the past leaves me thinking that these questions are in vain, but you can't blame a guy for trying.

 

[lifegazer]

Utter foolishness. Please provide *any* reason - the smallest scrap will do - of why you jumped from "things really do exist" to "let's kill each other".

Please show the members of this forum where I advocate the indifferent destruction of people and "things".
Stop telling lies.

Do you have any reason to think this to be true other than the fact that it works well with your "philosophy"?

Why would I say anything within my philosophy if it didn't make sense within that philosophy as a whole?
I'm not in the business of making things up. My philosophy begins with facts and works from there. If I conclude that Only God exists, then I am bound - by reason - to state these things.

 

[Cosmo]

Please show the members of this forum where I advocate the indifferent destruction of people and "things".
Stop telling lies.

Quit being so dramatic. You know exactly what I meant, so respond to it.

My philosophy begins with facts

Debatable.

and works from there. If I conclude that Only God exists, then I am bound - by reason - to state these things.

Are you also bound - by reason - to insult, belittle, and ignore those who don't agree with your conclusions?

 

[H'ethetheth]

I thought it was pretty obvious:-

A real universe
If a real universe exists beyond the sense of one, then "things" really do exist and are really separated from one another by space & time.
The universe has no purpose or meaning, and neither does humanity. In fact, 'self-awareness' is some kind of brain-generated illusion - there is no 'self'. It's a free-for-all where you should grab as much money and have as much fun as you possibly can before you melt away into the irrelevant end.

An illusory universe
'You' are God. You are not the "thing" you perceive yourself to be within the illusion. Fundamentally, 'You' created this illusion for a purpose and all of your choices are meaningful.
Nobody else but God exists. This is truly significant and your future should be devoted to eradicating all selfishness, war and injustice.

Those, briefly, are the primary differences.

Okido, that clears up a lot, but apparently you misunderstood.
You see, my question was about space and physics if you will (you know, the order of the observed), seeing how this thread is about indivisibility.
What I can distill out of the above answer is that the only difference between the two universes, observable from the inside of either universe, is that your universe somehow 'cares'.

Is this what you meant or do you think there are other - e.g. physical - differences, observable from within?

Let's say you're right, the universe cares. What are the consequences of living a good or bad life, beside making the universe happy or sad respectively?
And apparently, some of God's imagined creatures live an evil life, so is your concept of God at least partly evil?
When we die, is that when we realise we were God all along?
And what about animals? Should they be nice to (other) animals? Or are they not part of the group of beings that God imagines he is, but only imagines them to exist?
Interesting stuff.

Second edit to add: About observing from the inside: How does one observe that the universe cares? I wrote it down, but didn't actually think it through completely.

 

[Filip Sandor]

I thought it was pretty obvious:-

A real universe
If a real universe exists beyond the sense of one, then "things" really do exist and are really separated from one another by space & time.
The universe has no purpose or meaning, and neither does humanity. In fact, 'self-awareness' is some kind of brain-generated illusion - there is no 'self'. It's a free-for-all where you should grab as much money and have as much fun as you possibly can before you melt away into the irrelevant end.

An illusory universe
'You' are God. You are not the "thing" you perceive yourself to be within the illusion. Fundamentally, 'You' created this illusion for a purpose and all of your choices are meaningful.
Nobody else but God exists. This is truly significant and your future should be devoted to eradicating all selfishness, war and injustice.

Those, briefly, are the primary differences.

LG,

Judging by your definitions, would it be fair to label a "Real Universe" as one of orderliness and an "Illusory Universe" as arbitrary?

Also, why are you so particularly biased to believe that the illusory Universe is more real than the real Universe? Some things are clearly beyong your control, you cannot 'will' yourself to fly or make material objects disappear - there must be fundametally "real" laws at work that prevent your will from doing certain things.

 

[monkboon]

If I conclude that Only God exists, then I am bound - by reason - to state these things.

You are bound by reason to show how you came to that conclusion, yet after repeated requests for your rationale, you have yet to provide it. You ask us to accept your philosophy, yet you go from asserting that a real universe isn't necessary for sensation to provide us with the illusion of one to concluding that we are God. There's a big gap from premise to conclusion that it is incumbent upon you to fill in.

I'll repeat my summary of the last thread - by your reasoning, God is arguing with himself over the nature of reality.

 

[RussDill]

Time to end this stupidity...

Quantum physics refers to the fundamental energy of the entity which creates the sensations and why that energy is essentially non-determinable.

hey lifegazer, how about you explain what the hell you mean by this, eh? Otherwise, it is completely meaningless, because everything I have read about QM has never refered to "fundamental energy" or energy being "essentially non-determinable".

Awareness is essentially non-spatial which accounts for quantum non-locality of sensed-effects within awareness.

again, I explained your misunderstand of "quantum teleportation"

In other words, quantum-physics - relating to sensed existence in a non-spatial awareness - cannot relate to a REALITY of space beyond the sense of it.
Quantum physics cannot relate to a world "out there"!!

...right, because of a bunch of meaningless phrases, you are right.

 

[lifegazer]

Okido, that clears up a lot, but apparently you misunderstood.
You see, my question was about space and physics if you will

Oh... does this mean that the differences between being a meaningless human and a God are irrelevant in comparison to what it all means for physics? LOL

(you know, the order of the observed), seeing how this thread is about indivisibility.

Yep... and "indivisibility" leads to the fact that only God exists.

What I can distill out of the above answer is that the only difference between the two universes, observable from the inside of either universe, is that your universe somehow 'cares'.

Not so. I was just citing the important differences. What it all means for physics is completely insignificant in relation to what I wrote.

Is this what you meant or do you think there are other - e.g. physical - differences, observable from within?

I've told you what it means for science elsewhere:-
Everything we sense emanates from God. That includes the sense of the universe, thoughts, feelings, life.
This kinda has an effect on the time & resources employed by science in seeking the causality of what we sense. For example, string-theories are a waste of time and resources. Likewise, research into how 'the brain' creates thought and feeling - because it doesn't.

Let's say you're right, the universe cares. What are the consequences of living a good or bad life, beside making the universe happy or sad respectively?

Correction: God cares - the universe is not an entity and has no feelings.
The consequences of allowing evil & selfishness to conquer good and selflessness are that God will die to all sense of being. I.e., armageddon awaits.

And apparently, some of God's imagined creatures live an evil life, so is your concept of God at least partly evil?

Yes. God has the capacity to act evil in ignorance of Self-identity.

When we die, is that when we realise we were God all along?

'We' don't live or die. God lives and cannot die except to the sense or perception of being somebody else.

And what about animals? Should they be nice to (other) animals? Or are they not part of the group of beings that God imagines he is, but only imagines them to exist?
Interesting stuff.

God is whatever is aware but only the awareness of being human endows God with the capacity to actualise Self-realisation.

 

[lifegazer]

Judging by your definitions, would it be fair to label a "Real Universe" as one of orderliness and an "Illusory Universe" as arbitrary?

No. The universe we sense - the "illusory universe" - is one of orderliness. Our laws of physics mirror the order present in the universe that we sense.

Also, why are you so particularly biased to believe that the illusory Universe is more real than the real Universe?

Biased? The only experience of existence is the sense of one, with the associated thoughts & feelings that are had.
The sense of the universe occurs "in here" (within whatever it is that I am). However, if there is a real universe, it must be "out there", beyond me and beyond my sense of it all.

I seek the truth via fact. That is the only bias I exhibit in my philosophy. Those facts include the above paragraph and the knowledge that scientific-facts relate to what is sensed.
That's why I keep telling people here that quantum-physics (relating to non-determinable energy) is a consequence of the fact that it is the fundamental-energy of whatever it is that I am (the creator of sensed "things") and would not apply to a real world full of real objects.
That's why I keep asking people to address my OP with a reason which acknowledges this.

Some things are clearly beyong your control, you cannot 'will' yourself to fly or make material objects disappear - there must be fundametally "real" laws at work that prevent your will from doing certain things.

If God is all that exists - and God COMPLETELY awakes to this realisation in 'this dream', then there is nothing that God cannot do.

"Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
[Matt; 17:10, King James]

 

[Wudang]

That's why I keep telling people here that quantum-physics (relating to non-determinable energy) is a consequence of the fact that it is the fundamental-energy of whatever it is that I am (the creator of sensed "things") and would not apply to a real world full of real objects.
That's why I keep asking people to address my OP with a reason which acknowledges this.

If God is all that exists - and God COMPLETELY awakes to this realisation in 'this dream', then there is nothing that God cannot do.

But you can't tell us that because it is patently obvious that you don't understand quantum physics, in fact you don't even understand any physics and your ideas are 2400 years out of date.
So we have to address your OP by acknowledging that your mangling of QM is correct? LOL. Pull the other one.
What makes you think that anyone dreams, let alone God? Prove it to the level that you require of materialists but not of your own half-baked ideas.

 

[lifegazer]

But you can't tell us that because it is patently obvious that you don't understand quantum physics, in fact you don't even understand any physics and your ideas are 2400 years out of date.

You're like a parrot who keeps saying the same things but lacks the capability to comprehend new ideas and/or the sincerity to care.
Firstly, show this forum a reference to any past philosopher who has produced the same argument as I posted (paste his argument).
Secondly, once you have failed to do this, explain to this forum which aspects of quantum physics I fail to understand which will affect anything I have said in recent posts.

So we have to address your OP by acknowledging that your mangling of QM is correct? LOL. Pull the other one.

QM deals with sensed effects, the energy of which is fundamentally non-determinable and which emanates from the creator of the sensations.

What makes you think that anyone dreams, let alone God?

A dream is when One is lost within a world that is not in itself real.
Welcome to the dream of the world.

 

[Wudang]

You're like a parrot who keeps saying the same things but lacks the capability to comprehend new ideas and/or the sincerity to care.

I have to repeat the question because you don't answer the question

Firstly, show this forum a reference to any past philosopher who has produced the same argument as I posted (paste his argument).
Secondly, once you have failed to do this, explain to this forum which aspects of quantum physics I fail to understand which will affect anything I have said in recent posts.

QM deals with sensed effects, the energy of which is fundamentally non-determinable and which emanates from the creator of the sensations.

A dream is when One is lost within a world that is not in itself real.
Welcome to the dream of the world.

QM is a coherent theory which,as Russ has pointed out, is intimately (i.e. the equations are all expressed in terms of) spacetime, QED. You fail to understand all of QM.

Please do not bring dreams into this without proving their existence with the same rigour that you demand of us.
You have said that we cannot prove our senses do not completely lie therefore we cannot refer to them. Why then can we trust our memories?
Almost everyone reading this forum has the wit to understand my question.
Almost everyone reading this forum has seen how vastly out of your depths you are when discussing science.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Oh... does this mean that the differences between being a meaningless human and a God are irrelevant in comparison to what it all means for physics? LOL

No It means that your refutation of four dimensional space is meaningless. Therefore, the whole "indivisibility-therefore-only-God-argument" is bogus. Space can exist, regardless whether it is presented to us bij God's imagination or not.

Yep... and "indivisibility" leads to the fact that only God exists.

Nope, it doesn't, at least not using any logic I'm familiar with.

Not so. I was just citing the important differences. What it all means for physics is completely insignificant in relation to what I wrote.

See above.

I've told you what it means for science elsewhere:-
Everything we sense emanates from God. That includes the sense of the universe, thoughts, feelings, life.
This kinda has an effect on the time & resources employed by science in seeking the causality of what we sense. For example, string-theories are a waste of time and resources. Likewise, research into how 'the brain' creates thought and feeling - because it doesn't.

Again, this is not what I wanted to know regarding indivisibility.

Correction: God cares - the universe is not an entity and has no feelings.
The consequences of allowing evil & selfishness to conquer good and selflessness are that God will die to all sense of being. I.e., armageddon awaits.

But God is the universe, so the universe cares. The 'occupants' of this apparent space see only a universe, not a God. Therefore, the only difference between your universe and the materialistic universe is that yours is a moral one, which we should keep in mind in case we do bad things.
However we do not get punished during our lifetime, and God cannot be observed other than being the universe, and God cannot be observed to care.

Ergo, there are no differences observable from the inside, between your universe and 'mine'. Your God is a matter of faith, and oh golly, that's novel!

Yes. God has the capacity to act evil in ignorance of Self-identity.

Do you really not see that this is about the lamest way one could possibly explain anything?
Do you think this satisfies my curiosity about a moral universe? Think again.

'We' don't live or die. God lives and cannot die except to the sense or perception of being somebody else.

So by any definition we have of death, we die. We cease to exist as the moral agents we were. We are no longer there. We become yesterday's dream. We're dead.

 

[lifegazer]

QM is a coherent theory which,as Russ has pointed out, is intimately (i.e. the equations are all expressed in terms of) spacetime, QED. You fail to understand all of QM.

QM deals with sensed effects in sensed spacetime, the energy of which is fundamentally non-determinable because it emanates from the creator of the sensations.
If you choose to ignore this again, then I request that you stop participating in this thread.
Also, I asked you to explain to this forum which aspects of quantum physics I fail to understand which will affect anything I have said in recent posts. You have failed to do this.

Please do not bring dreams into this without proving their existence with the same rigour that you demand of us.

A dream is when One is lost within a world that is not in itself real.
There are no experiences that cannot be classed as a dream since the sensed-world is not real in itself.
Deal with this very credible response or go away. I'm tired of you ignoring everything I say to you.

Now, what happened to the other BS you were preaching about my argument being 2400 years out of date? Could you not find an argument the same as mine from 2400 years ago? Thought not. Just another example of the way you make things up and lie.

Are you just here to wind me up? And how low will you go to do it?

 

[lifegazer]

Space can exist, regardless whether it is presented to us bij God's imagination or not.

If you don't yet understand the distinction between sensed-space within whatever it is that I am, and real space beyond whatever it is that I am, then you're never going to get very far in a discussion like this.