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In this corner..M. Moore and in the other..Hannity!

Sporanox said:
Are you guys seriously kicking around the issue of whether Moore is a hypocrite?

His newest documentary comes out all guns blazing against the very system of capitalism, if his own mouth is to be believed. At the same time, he says he thinks his movies succeed because "they are good" and not due to capitalism (heavens no).

The dude enjoys all the trappings of a capitalist society while fervently denouncing it. Nobody wants him to cut off his income and starve in a self-made commune, but is it too much to ask that he not be so excessive by his own measure? Perhaps donate most of his fortune?

After all, as we know, the gap between the super rich and the super poor is increasing...guess which side Michael Moore falls into. :rolleyes:
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This might be compelling if it was in any way representative of Michael Moore's views or reality. But it's not. It's just a strawman.

Moore has been emphatic that's he's not against "the very system of capitalism" as you claim. He's against the greedy, hypocritical, and unfair aspects of that system which have evolved in our country.

It's funny how Michael Moore's critics are almost always EXACTLY what they criticize him for being, and he himself often isn't (but sometimes he is - I'm not saying there aren't any legitimate criticisms of Moore. There's no excuse for harassing a guy with alzheimer's.)
 
cisco said:
This might be compelling if it was in any way representative of Michael Moore's views or reality. But it's not. It's just a strawman.

Moore has been emphatic that's he's not against "the very system of capitalism" as you claim. He's against the greedy, hypocritical, and unfair aspects of that system which have evolved in our country.

It's funny how Michael Moore's critics are almost always EXACTLY what they criticize him for being, and he himself often isn't (but sometimes he is - I'm not saying there aren't any legitimate criticisms of Moore. There's no excuse for harassing a guy with alzheimer's.)
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Strawman?

AVC: You have scenes in this film and in Roger & Me that reflect nostalgically on the glory days of Flint and the manufacturing sector, and presumably on the system in general. If the system is broken as you contend, can it incrementally be fixed? And if not, what do you replace it with?

MM: I don’t think you can repair or reform the existing system, and I think it’s crazy to try it. I think that it’s the 21st century. Let’s create a new economic order that fits this century. We’re smart enough to do that. Why are we having this debate between a 16th-century economic philosophy and a 19th-century economic philosophy? Capitalism vs. socialism.

AVC: So what do you call it? What does it become?

MM: Let’s not worry about that right now. Why don’t we just try to construct something that’s run by democratic principles and has an ethical core to it?
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http://www.avclub.com/articles/michael-moore,33624/

Strawman? :boggled:
 
LOL, seems like you completely misunderstood what he was saying there, Sopranox.
 
oldhat said:
LOL, seems like you completely misunderstood what he was saying there, Sopranox.
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Here's another quote of his from the same interview:

Michael Moore said:
“Maybe the problem here is the very system itself.”
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Compare that to cisco's denial a few posts ago:

cisco said:
Moore has been emphatic that's he's not against "the very system of capitalism" as you claim.
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Right on.
 
He's talking about the current, wildly corrupt, failed and completely discredited system where workers and the poor and middle class get screwed and the super rich make off with hundreds of millions in bonuses for failure and the economy is ruined.

Is reforming this system and creating something for the 21st century instead of getting into debates between 16th century vulture capitalism and 19th century socialism that frightening to you? Why?
 
I wonder if capitalism's feelings are hurt that Michael Moore made a mean movie about how ruined it's become?
 
oldhat said:
Is reforming this system and creating something for the 21st century instead of getting into debates between 16th century vulture capitalism and 19th century socialism that frightening to you? Why?
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You're right, I did misunderstand that part of the quote. Nevertheless, the man is in full-blown favor of abolishing the capitalist system. That's the point.

ETA: And I don't believe that garbage about this not being capitalism vs. socialism, either. Moore's in favor of single payer and in the same class as Naomi Klein. In short, he's a neo-socialist or whatever you want to call it.
 
Sporanox said:
You're right, I did misunderstand that part of the quote. Nevertheless, the man is in full-blown favor of abolishing the capitalist system. That's the point.

ETA: And I don't believe that garbage about this not being capitalism vs. socialism, either. Moore's in favor of single payer and in the same class as Naomi Klein. In short, he's a neo-socialist or whatever you want to call it.
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Gee, judging by the way they've been acting, I'd say Lehman Brothers, Morgan stanley, Goldman Sachs, the Federal Reserve, the Republican Party, the Big 3 automakers and Alan Greenspan are all in favor of abolishing capitalism.

They sorta turned us into socialists, wouldn't you say?

More than little old Michael Moore and his film camera ever did.
 
oldhat said:
They sorta turned us into socialists, wouldn't you say?
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No, not really. The responsibility lies with the government, and with us for not kicking our representatives earlier. ETA: yes, you already mentioned Republicans. This is a bipartisan fault.
 
DropGems said:
Authentic internet release is way different than camjobs. Camjobs all get pulled immediately on most sites. It takes 20 minutes to find one. Another 20 to find the right plug in to play it, another 20 to reload your browser after it crashed from all the redirects and pop-ups and then finally when you get to it, the quality sucks.
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You've obviously never heard of Bit Torrent filesharing, which accounts for around 50% of all internet traffic in the world.

No long searching needed, no chance it gets pulled, no need for plugins, no need to use a browser beyond finding the file.

Everyone uses browser plugins that stop redirects and popups, anyway, don't they?

Welcome to the Internet.

It's also obvious that a lot of people doesn't know what capitalism really means. It doesn't mean 'amass wealth, lol'. In fact, in the beginning, one of the main ideas of capitalism was that it would spread the wealth around better than the old systems. Go read Wealth of Nations. Capitalism rests mainly on two legs, the right to own property and the right to sell your goods.
 
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Here's another form of the argument, tell me how its any different:

Soviet Russia, 1981. Influential Russian author, who has penned many books and has a large following which has given him access to elite levels of the society - starts writing works critical of communism.

"Aha!" say the apparatchiks. "What a hypocrite! After all, his nice home and his cottage, his comfortable life of ease writing novels, the awards and recognition - the communist system has provided all of this. How could he criticize that which has given him everything he has?"

----

The larger reason these criticisms are bunkus relies on the fact that no individual citizen really has control over the country where they were born and lived their life. We have to adapt to the system that is around us. I might deride certain aspects of consumerism, but I have branded shirts. I own a lot of records and like electronics. I've been socialised to be a consumer, its built-in to the system. If we took such criticisms seriously and carried them out to their logical end, it would mean the only valid criticism of capitalism would have to come from a Kibbutz or some commune somewhere filled with live-off-the-land hippies making their own clothes.

Everyone else has to participate in the very systems they criticize - and doing so is no hypocrisy but a duty.
 
DropGems said:
It depends on how one defines things. Are you a capitalist if you live in a capitalist society and play by all the capitalist rules? He's a capitalist, right? Just because he opposes capitalism while engaging in it doesn't mean he isn't one. Right?

...snip...
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But he does not live in a capitalist society.
 
Praktik said:
Everyone else has to participate in the very systems they criticize - and doing so is no hypocrisy but a duty.
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Eh...to the extent that Michael Moore does? While asserting that capitalism had nothing to do with his success? Remember, the gap between the super-rich and the super-poor is increasing!

By the way, regarding your communist critic example - if he was still enjoying the benefits of communist autocracy, then he should have started doing something about it or moving to another country. Integrity demands it.
 
Lurker said:
Marx could have moved to a different country with a different economic system. Instead he clearly is a Capitalist! He's retarded. Guess we can discard the term Marxist as a misnomer now.
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Really? Didn't know there were so many well established economic systems available for Marx to pick and choose from back in 1800's. I guess he could've headed to Australia though on his carriage.

Point is Moore could live under a different economic system very easily but he'd rather make a ton of money in the US instead (and help keep the capitalist system propped up by paying taxes on the revenue of his films). Does living in the US and enjoying all the fruits of capitalism invalidate his message? No. But does it open him up to hypocrisy shots? Of course. It's like when GWB and Chaney are accused of draft-dodging then engaging fervently in war and people call them chickenheads. There's a million examples of people getting criticized by this type of hypocrisy. Why the special pleading for Moore?
 
DropGems said:
Why the special pleading for Moore?
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It would be hypocritical if Michael Moore owned a union-free factory that exploited workers or owned a bank that made a fortune ripping people off and then made movies denouncing capitalism. Was Mohammed Ali a capitalist? He earned millions as an athlete. But he wasn't a capitalist. Same with Moore.

Being from a working class family in Flint, MI and becoming successful filmmaker doesn't make him a hypocrite.

He didn't go into filmmaking to as a business, he went into it to express his political and artistic point of view.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing "being successful and earning money" with "being a capitalist."

The idea that he's living in the US and paying taxes and "propping up the system he critcizes" by paying taxes and that makes him a hypocrite is idiotic.
 
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