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Human Evolution

SezMe

post-pre-born
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
25,183
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
In the anecdote thread, I made a bit of an offhand comment:

Maybe it's an odd twist but since mankind's ability to reproduce is no longer controlled by natural selection it is appropriate that our rapid anecdotal response behavior be replaced by analytic thinking. IOW, natural selection has favored those who were able to overthrow natural selection!

to which skeptigirl replied:

That natural selection forces are no longer operating in the human species is an unsupportable conclusion. But maybe you could take this to another thread.

so here's the new thread. Ain't these here computers great.

Anyway, I did not say natural selection was not operating, I said it was not "controlling". Big difference. But, as stated, it was a bit of an off-the-cuff remark, but I'll stand by it. No, I dont' have any hard evidence for my claim but I'll take a risk and cite "common sense".

Would you care to explain why you think natural selection is still controlling human evolution?
 
I think I agree with you actually - Natural selection is still there and will be till many of the genetic misfires can be corrected. But is not the controlling force it was say 50,000 years ago.
 
Natural selection is every bit as powerful as before, and it will stay so. Even in some remote future where every human and domestic animal is 100% generically engineered, it will still be.

To say that something manmade is not "natural" is naive. Nature made us, including our ability to manipulate Nature.

Hans
 
Natural selection is every bit as powerful as before, and it will stay so. Even in some remote future where every human and domestic animal is 100% generically engineered, it will still be.

To say that something manmade is not "natural" is naive. Nature made us, including our ability to manipulate Nature.

You're conflating "natural" the concept with natural as it's used within the context of the phrase. I think SezMe is on the right track and a perfect example of this is anti-malarial drugs. Now humans don't need to rely on the sickle-cell gene to protect them from the disease in malarial environments.
 
You're conflating "natural" the concept with natural as it's used within the context of the phrase. I think SezMe is on the right track and a perfect example of this is anti-malarial drugs. Now humans don't need to rely on the sickle-cell gene to protect them from the disease in malarial environments.
I'm not conflating. I'm pointing out that the distinction is meaningless. We are not the only creature on Earth that is adapting the environment to it, instead of the opposite. We are just exceptionally good at it.

Hans
 
Natural selection is doing exactly as much as it always has - a given environmental pressure leads to certain geneotypes being more successful in the long term than others. All technology does is change the pressures.
 
Natural selection is doing exactly as much as it always has - a given environmental pressure leads to certain geneotypes being more successful in the long term than others. All technology does is change the pressures.

Absolutely! It seems pretty naive to think that in these here modern times we are now running the show. Maybe this is a huge assumption but surely evololution doesn't move at a speed where we could even measure its change anyway.

Look again in 1,000,000 years or so and see if we have pointy fingers for using our iPhone XXXg or fat asses and no legs from not walking any more. :D
 
When we have no choice over who to breed with or how often, when all pairings produce viable offspring living to breeding age, whatever genetic abnormalities they might have, then we will have eliminated natural selction. This would be a bad idea.

Natural selection is the final quality control on the imperfect system of genetic replication. Removing natural selection would lead to a swiftly degenerating species.
 
So this doesn't turn into a semantics argument we might want to address the specific operating mechanisms. If we disagree there, then we disagree. If we agree there then we may just be arguing semantics of the terms, "controlling, vs only operating", and "natural" which always bothered me as a term since I consider a human-made structure as natural as an animal's den.

First, a short sidetrack on the term, natural. I don't view humans as 'special' when it comes to the natural order of the Universe. On the other hand, there is nothing akin to our leap in technology in the rest of the animal world. The term, natural, is often used to mean, not human-made. And technology is usually considered all human-made.

So, getting back to natural selection pressures, until we start manipulating the human genome, which we are actually close to doing and have done so with plants, animals and microorganisms, Cuddles is more correct that we are affecting selection pressures, not controlling evolution.

The argument that affecting selection pressures is somehow unique in evolutionary terms is questionable. Animal migration affected past selection pressures. If you consider one mechanism of affecting selection pressures, you'll have to come up with a definition that distinguishes one means of affecting selection pressures from another than simply saying human-affected.

And, the statement, "mankind's ability to reproduce is no longer controlled by natural selection", while it supports the claim that humans have an affect on evolution, the statement is a long stretch from saying, "natural selection was [no longer] 'controlling'" evolution. A few in-vitro fertilizations and medical interventions which allow reproduction in a group of people who without technology would not have lived to reproduce hardly changes the balance of power in what/who is controlling humankind's evolutionary path.

What leads to the misconception we are currently having some huge impact on human evolution with our modern medical abilities is the false assumptions made on how fast evolution actually occurs. In microorganisms, evolution is very fast. In the collective human genome, it is incredibly slow.

Take for example the thousands of years it took for humans who migrated to higher latitudes to develop lighter skin. People of all skin types have now spread out around the world. Do you see light skinned Europeans in Australia giving birth to darker skinned children yet? No, you see an epidemic of malignant melanoma in light skinned Australians. It will be many many generations before natural selection pressures affect the evolution of skin in newcomers to Australia.

Are we affecting the selection pressures? Yes. People can wear hats, use sunscreen and get early treatment thus surviving melanoma.

I understand how one can make the semantics argument that is controlling evolution. But my view is that statement is far to big a stretch to describe the current impact humans are actually having on our evolutionary pathway. Affecting it, yes, controlling it, no way.
 
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FWIW, I have bad eyes, marginal hearing, extreme hypertension, widespread allergies, gatrointestinal disorders, kidney problems, and a genetic predisposition to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. Lots of cancer.

Nevertheless, I've survived to reproduce twice, successfully.

Take that as you will.
 
FWIW, I have bad eyes, marginal hearing, extreme hypertension, widespread allergies, gatrointestinal disorders, kidney problems, and a genetic predisposition to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. Lots of cancer.

Nevertheless, I've survived to reproduce twice, successfully.

Take that as you will.

It means there's nowt wrong with yer nodger.
 
Um, anecdotal stories are not a bad surival trait they are just a byproduct of conditioning.

We are still subject to natural selection. Like the effects of type II diabetes. However many will breed before it has an effect.
 
Natural selection is every bit as powerful as before, and it will stay so. Even in some remote future where every human and domestic animal is 100% generically engineered, it will still be.

To say that something manmade is not "natural" is naive. Nature made us, including our ability to manipulate Nature.
I agree with your second paragraph completely. But that is not how I was using the phrase "natural selection". That phrase is iconic in the discussion of evolution and has a history and meaning apart from the word "natural" taken in isolation.

It is in the evolutionary sense that I use the phrase, not the dictioary sense that I use the word.

So in a very narrow, restricted sense you are right: natural selection is at work because everything is natural. But that point completely misses the intent of my OP.
 
I'm not conflating. I'm pointing out that the distinction is meaningless. We are not the only creature on Earth that is adapting the environment to it, instead of the opposite. We are just exceptionally good at it.
In a sense, Hans, that is exactly my point. We're so good at it now, much less imagine, say, just 100 years in the future that our ability is not just at one end of a spectrum but breaks off that spectrum completely. Now you may rejoin that it is a matter or words in which case we're reduced to a useless semantic discussion.

Consider US's example of anti-malarial drugs. Or consider the fact that mankind has eliminated polio from the Earth (or damn near so). Can you cite some other species that have had such a dramatic, world-wide affect on the environment?
 
Natural selection is doing exactly as much as it always has - a given environmental pressure leads to certain geneotypes being more successful in the long term than others. All technology does is change the pressures.
What environmental pressure does artificial insemination change? It allows male/female pairs to reproduce that otherwise could not. I'm have a lot of trouble calling that "natural selection" (in the sense of the phrase I mentioned a couple of posts ago).
 
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But my view is that statement is far to big a stretch to describe the current impact humans are actually having on our evolutionary pathway. Affecting it, yes, controlling it, no way.
This is ironic, skeptigirl, in that you often complain (rightfully so in many cases) that people are not responding to what you actually said. The shoe is on the other foot here. Please read and respond to what I actually said, not a grand scale revision of what I said. Thanks.
 
FWIW, I have bad eyes, marginal hearing, extreme hypertension, widespread allergies, gatrointestinal disorders, kidney problems, and a genetic predisposition to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. Lots of cancer.

Nevertheless, I've survived to reproduce twice, successfully.

Take that as you will.
Why do you hate Charles Darwin? :)
 
FWIW, I have bad eyes, marginal hearing, extreme hypertension, widespread allergies, gatrointestinal disorders, kidney problems, and a genetic predisposition to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. Lots of cancer.

Nevertheless, I've survived to reproduce twice, successfully.

Take that as you will.

Our cushy life now allows you and I to spread our nasty genes. One good disaster that wipes out half of the planet, and our kind will be the first to go, leaving the healthier folk behind to fight to survive the disaster. Mwahaaaa. :p My poor kids all got my bad eyesight, and my allergies would have killed me long ago if it weren't for interventions. Ah well. Makes me appreciate my good fortune all the more to be living nowadays.
 
What environmental pressure does artificial insemination change? It allows male/female pairs to reproduce that otherwise could not. I'm have a lot of trouble calling that "natural selection" (in the sense of the phrase I mentioned a couple of posts ago).

It may alter sexual selection pressures.

There was a thread on this same topic a while ago, I'm going to see if I can find it. :)

Edit: Here you are: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65238
 
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By golly, you're right. Thanks. Should we just carry on here since that thread ended a couple of years ago or ask the mods to merge them?
 

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