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Human and Animal rights...the same thing?

Selfish? Absolutely.

It also suggests that you would be even smarter to break your moral code when there are no consequences. For instance, if you are assured of getting away with it, you should steal from your best friend.

Of course, you can never be completely assured of "getting away with it", but your argument suggests that you should simply make a rational risk assessment in those situations and determine if it is in your best interests or not to steal from your best friend, knowing the possible consequences both if you get away with it or not.

That may lead to in general avoiding those behaviors that you consider immoral, but it doesn't avoid them in principle.
 
It also suggests that you would be even smarter to break your moral code when there are no consequences. For instance, if you are assured of getting away with it, you should steal from your best friend.

Of course, you can never be completely assured of "getting away with it", but your argument suggests that you should simply make a rational risk assessment in those situations and determine if it is in your best interests or not to steal from your best friend, knowing the possible consequences both if you get away with it or not.

That may lead to in general avoiding those behaviors that you consider immoral, but it doesn't avoid them in principle.

Are we saying rights and morals are the same things? I'm not sure but in any case your example doesn't quite work for me because regardless of whether my friend knows I robbed them or not, they would know they had been robbed. And if robbing people when they don't know anything about it becomes commonplace then I'm going to get robbed when I don't know anything about it.

I don't want to live in a society where it's ok to rob me if i don't see you do it. So I don't rob people. And society reciprocates more or less.

Good luck getting goat or fox society to reciprocate.
 
Are we saying rights and morals are the same things? I'm not sure but in any case your example doesn't quite work for me because regardless of whether my friend knows I robbed them or not, they would know they had been robbed. And if robbing people when they don't know anything about it becomes commonplace then I'm going to get robbed when I don't know anything about it.

I don't see how you robbing your friend is going to cause robbing people to become commonplace. Certainly your actions are not going to have enough of an effect on society that the negatives that come back to you counter positives you can get. ie. Assume you steal $1000, and this increases the rate of crime (somehow, I don't know how...) such that everyone has a 1% greater chance of having $1000 stolen... you are now up $1000 and down a 1% chance at $1000 - arguably equivalent to $10.

That your action would (in this, real, world) cause crime rates to increase to that extent I find very unlikely, but even if it did, if you only value yourself you should steal the money.

If on the other hand you value his well-being...
 
I think as soon as a species can reciprocate rights then they qualify for equal treatment under them.

By your own argument, as soon as infants reciprocate rights then they qualify for equal treatment under them. Until then, we only treat them well to make ourselves, as rational humans, feel better about ourselves. Since they can't, they have no rights greater or lesser than animals, and should be treated as such.

Infants aren't a species, they are little humans. For a little human, as a bigger human, I have better insight into what it might deem applicable rights and it has the ability to reciprocate once it has developed into a bigger human if said rights are upheld.

A fully grown, adult, non-human animal cannot understand or reciprocate rights deemed upon it by a human.

On the flip side, humans are incapable of understanding what non-human animals would deem as rights if they so chose. We simply decide what they might want based on our own viewpoints without their input since we don't communicate between species.

For humans, this happens between cultural boundaries as well.
 
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Infants aren't a species, they are little humans. For a little human, as a bigger human, I have better insight into what it might deem applicable rights and it has the ability to reciprocate once it has developed into a bigger human if said rights are upheld.

A fully grown, adult, non-human animal cannot understand or reciprocate rights deemed upon it by a human.

On the flip side, humans are incapable of understanding what non-human animals would deem as rights if they so chose. We simply decide what they might want based on our own viewpoints without their input since we don't communicate between species.

For humans, this happens between cultural boundaries as well.

I asked about this in another post, perhaps even another thread. Not certain I ever received any answer (I may have, and have missed seeing it):

What rights do non-human animals have that they would still have if humans had never existed? What rights exist among, and are granted, upheld, denied, or revoked by, non-human animals?

They don't appear to have any right to life, amongst themselves.

They don't appear to have a right to freedom of assembly for the purpose of peaceful protest.

They don't appear to have the right to abortion, nor can an abortion be granted or denied or even obtained.

They don't appear to have the right to humane termination, without suffering. (In fact, I've seen video of animals that are still alive and conscious while being consumed by other animals.)

They don't appear to have any right to equal protection under the law. Nor the right to an attorney, nor to have their rights read to them at time of arrest.


Thus, I must again ask: what rights do non-human animals have, that haven't first been granted (or denied) by humans?

In case it isn't apparent, I am advocating that humans are appropriate for determining and upholding animal rights, as humans are the only ones who determine and uphold them, and always have been.
 
Maus said:
I think as soon as a species can reciprocate rights then they qualify for equal treatment under them.

Maus said:
Infants aren't a species, they are little humans. For a little human, as a bigger human, I have better insight into what it might deem applicable rights and it has the ability to reciprocate once it has developed into a bigger human if said rights are upheld.

I have to call a red herring on this one. Whether you have insight or not into the potential abilities of an infant human has no connection whatsoever with your original post. In the first post, you're explaining why individuals have rights, in the second you're not.

The rest of your post is a red herring unless you can explain why "you most reciprocate rights to have them" does not apply to non-rational humans.
 
I have to call a red herring on this one. Whether you have insight or not into the potential abilities of an infant human has no connection whatsoever with your original post. In the first post, you're explaining why individuals have rights, in the second you're not.

The rest of your post is a red herring unless you can explain why "you most reciprocate rights to have them" does not apply to non-rational humans.

Because non rational humans come under the subset of "humans".


If you take 5 human beings, you, I, President Obama, David Cameron and a severely retarded individual, you have a group (humans) which contains two sub-groups. The first sub group is made up of the first four individuals, and we are the "rational humans", the later sub group, the retarded individual, is "non rational human". However, if you took 5 cows, or dogs, or sheep, they would all be non rational, because the group "cows" or "dogs" is iherently incapable of being rational.

In other words, a severely retarded human, being a non rational individual, is a major aberration from the norm for the group "humans". Since the group "humans" is, barring very rare examples, "rational" all members of the group are treated the same as all other members of the group.

On the other hand, when it comes to cows, there are zero rational members of this group, therefore they are of a different status to "rational" beings.

Dos that make any sense? :p
 
What rights do non-human animals have that they would still have if humans had never existed? What rights exist among, and are granted, upheld, denied, or revoked by, non-human animals?

They don't appear to have any right to life, amongst themselves.

They don't appear to have a right to freedom of assembly for the purpose of peaceful protest.

They don't appear to have the right to abortion, nor can an abortion be granted or denied or even obtained.

They don't appear to have the right to humane termination, without suffering. (In fact, I've seen video of animals that are still alive and conscious while being consumed by other animals.)

They don't appear to have any right to equal protection under the law. Nor the right to an attorney, nor to have their rights read to them at time of arrest.
I'm pretty sure you know the answer to all of those questions: animals cannot exercise a right to an attorney, assembly, or anything else because the lack the rational capacities to do so. They're no better or worse off than non-rational humans who lack the capacity to exercise any of those rights.

If the argument is "animals don't exercise rights, therefore they don't have any", well then you must deny the rights non-rational humans for the exact same reason. The argument which excludes animal rights applies to mentally similar humans. Neither of them are moral agents.

Most people don't like that conclusion, because mentally similar humans have some important and interesting capacities, like a capacity to experience suffering and satisfaction. If someone believes that suffer and satisfaction bears moral weight, then that particular capacity is morally relevant in non-rational humans. It seems clear then, we can respect a person's capacity to experience suffering and satisfaction even when that person isn't a moral agent. This argument is logically inclusive to animals, so we're obliged to treat them with the same respect.

In other words, moral agency isn't a prerequisite for moral consideration. You'd be hard-pressed to explain why non-rational humans deserve moral consideration, but non-rational animals do not.

Thus, I must again ask: what rights do non-human animals have, that haven't first been granted (or denied) by humans?

In case it isn't apparent, I am advocating that humans are appropriate for determining and upholding animal rights, as humans are the only ones who determine and uphold them, and always have been.
Fair enough. Humans are moral agent and can discover rules relevant to the ethical treatment of humans. Seems uncontroversial enough.

Of course, a more interesting question here is why those rules relevant to the ethical treatment of humans stop at the level of humans. Sure you can say that "humans make the rules", but that's not the end of the story: any given rule has some underlying moral principle. Not everyone agrees on the same set of principles, not everyone agrees that all principles are as good as others, not all principles are logically consistent.

If you've ever been involved in a discussion on homosexuality, you have discussions of this sort all the time. Some guy objecting to homosexuality might say its "unnatural", so his underlying moral principle is that unnatural things are morally wrong -- its easy enough to settle on a definition of "unnatural", such as being manmade or not found in nature, and show that the person accepts many unnatural things as perfectly acceptable, like skyscrapers (manmade), or show that the "unnatural" thing is found in nature, like homosexuality in many species of animals. If you can do that much, you've shown that the general principle underlying the objection to homosexuality is short-sighted, inconsistent, irrational, or just plain bad.

Now, I have discussions of this sort whenever I talk to people about animal rights. Initially, before jumping on the vegan train, I was very much against animal rights but did not like the arguments being used against it. In pretty much all cases, the arguments invoke some obvious fallacy or leave a hole open which logically excludes non-rational humans.

(Case in point: If you've been on this forum or the Internet Infidels forum long enough, you've seen fundies argue that evolution implies social darwinism, atheists shoot it down by saying "survival of the fittest is descriptive, not prescriptive"; in a discussion of animal rights, the very same atheists argue in favor of eating animals because, well, we're animals, survival of the fittest and all that jazz.)

You can see why that's problematic, right? Even if humans make the rules, the principles that they have are inclusive to non-human animals anyway. Arguments against animal rights have nasty consequences such as excluding a whole class of humans, justifying might makes right, legitimizing racism, resulting in consequences that almost everyone finds repugnant.

Animal rights and human rights aren't different things, they aren't even complimentary, they're the exact same thing. Animal rights are simply a logical extension of the moral and principles that everyone already accepts regarding the ethical treatment of humans.
 
In other words, moral agency isn't a prerequisite for moral consideration. You'd be hard-pressed to explain why non-rational humans deserve moral consideration, but non-rational animals do not.

It's incredibly easy to do actually.

That it could be dismissed, either by logical argument (as I am sure you will attempt, by the way :) ) or by simple naysaying is neither here nor there.

To expand on my above post, I consider each and every species to be a separate group. The more, or less "rational" a group is, the more or less rights it deserves, regardless of specific individuals or even sub groups within that group.

You could for example, divide humans into "white" and "non-white" or "black" and "non black" or even "shorter than average" and "taller than average" but it wouldn't make any difference, because all individuals are still part of the species group.

Now, I don't advocate cruelty to any animal. In fact, while I will merrily swat flies in my house or hoover up really really big spiders (thus killing them) I do not advocate killing any and all flies or spiders in any circumstance, and while I will kill a rabbit or a cow for food, I do not advocate killing them in any but the least painful and damaging ways possible. I do however rate flies and spiders as less deserving than animals with more cognitive power, and I use the highest achievement obtained by a species as a whole rather than the individual members of that species. Thus I see no problem in declaring even the brightest of cows (which are still really, really stupid animals) as being acceptable as food, whilst declaring the most severely disabled human as not. It does not matter to me how comparable the two individuals are, but the species they belong to.

This is why I would have more of a problem eating a human than a chimp, a chimp than a dog, or a dog than a cow.
 
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The rest of your post is a red herring unless you can explain why "you most reciprocate rights to have them" does not apply to non-rational humans.

I have been trying to explain, which maybe I am not being clear. Humans don't have the "right" to speak for species other than humans, because we are not them.

Our equivocating benevolence that we hold so dear and fit to bestow to every other living creature is our own made-up context.

"Non-rational" humans are still humans, and we can effectively understand their position, whether rational or not because as humans, we possess a sympathetic viewpoint.

I fail to see how my argument becomes a red-herring because not all humans share a collective viewpoint of the world, or are rational thinkers.

Infants can share in the collective of human rights because they are humans. While we may bestow a human-created set of rights called animal-rights on other creatures, we can't honestly think that the animals we bestow those rights to acknowledge or could ever reciprocate that set of rights.

Bestow human rights on a lion and it will still eat you if it's hungry. It has it's own ideas as to what it has the right to do.
 
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So is the general consensus that a right is something that is earned through the willingness/ability to grant that right to others?

And the rights of a species are based on the average ability of the species whether or not a particular individual is capable of fulfilling those obligations?

Thus any rights we give animals above and beyond their ability to reciprocate is an act of charity rather than one of obligation?
 
So is the general consensus that a right is something that is earned through the willingness/ability to grant that right to others?

And the rights of a species are based on the average ability of the species whether or not a particular individual is capable of fulfilling those obligations?

Thus any rights we give animals above and beyond their ability to reciprocate is an act of charity rather than one of obligation?

That's how I see it.

However, I will add that simply because it is an act of charity does not mean that it is one that should be taken lightly, and I think if we utilise animals, for companionship, food or whatever else, we have to maintain a high standard of care towards them, and should seek to cause as little suffering as possible.
 
Michael: [rationalization is] more important than sex.
Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

-- The Big Chill

Here's an example chosen almost at random (surely this thread has seen worse arguments, I mean, just look at the original post, or anything from Slingblade):

Because non rational humans come under the subset of "humans".

If you take 5 human beings, you, I, President Obama, David Cameron and a severely retarded individual, you have a group (humans) which contains two sub-groups. The first sub group is made up of the first four individuals, and we are the "rational humans", the later sub group, the retarded individual, is "non rational human". However, if you took 5 cows, or dogs, or sheep, they would all be non rational, because the group "cows" or "dogs" is iherently incapable of being rational.

In other words, a severely retarded human, being a non rational individual, is a major aberration from the norm for the group "humans". Since the group "humans" is, barring very rare examples, "rational" all members of the group are treated the same as all other members of the group.

On the other hand, when it comes to cows, there are zero rational members of this group, therefore they are of a different status to "rational" beings.

Dos that make any sense? :p

No, it does not make any sense. Would you apply the same reasoning to driving an automobile?*

The problem is most people already accept animal rights in some form. The outbursts in these threads come from rationalization hamsters spinning away.

For example, I think most people agree that it should be illegal to torture cats for fun. Now maybe many Americans think it's OK to torture cats in certain situations (Hell, Republicans think it's OK to torture humans in uncertain situations). We can argue as to why it's wrong to torture cats, but the most common, sincere, and best reason is that it involves causing harm to another being. Not a human being, not a somewhat closely related mammal (which is egocentric B.S.), but a being capable of experiencing pain.

People will even say it's wrong to torture cats if nobody else ever finds out. And it's wrong not because torture "coarsens" the human spirit, not because it leads to theoretical harm against homo Sapiens, but because the victims suffer.

_____________________
* Please do not use the word "privilege" in your answer.
 
Well, to treat an animal poorly demonstrates a lack of ability to grant rights to others. Thus while the animal may not be able to reciprocate your kind treatment it is good practice and demonstrates your own right to be treated well to other humans.

Cats, dogs and several other "pet class" animals are special cases in my mind. We have breed into them an ability to understand a certain rudimentary set of obligations. Thus since they are capable of accepting greater amounts of responsibility they are due greater rights.

Thus the idea of torturing a cat or dog is far more heinous in our minds than the idea of torturing a chicken or even a cow.
 
Well, to treat an animal poorly demonstrates a lack of ability to grant rights to others.

And to animals in particular.

Cats, dogs and several other "pet class" animals are special cases in my mind. We have breed into them an ability to understand a certain rudimentary set of obligations. Thus since they are capable of accepting greater amounts of responsibility they are due greater rights.

This is a rationalization hamster not unlike the one for people who say we ought to grant rights to other primates because we're so closely related. Call it the teacher's pet argument: we find some animals more appealing.

Thus the idea of torturing a cat or dog is far more heinous in our minds than the idea of torturing a chicken or even a cow.

Even if true, this is immaterial. As the cliche goes, in our minds the death of a single person gets mentally classified as a tragedy, and a million nameless people are nothing more than a statistic. I say "even if true" because, you know, "breeding" explains why people could not care less about dolphins and whales.

Arguments against animal rights remind me of arguments against gay rights. Ridiculous stuff. All the B.S. involving how marriage is "about procreation" would eventually give way to the observation, "it really doesn't affect me, so who cares?" Unfortunately, animal rights does affect people because it strongly suggests our appetites do not trump their lives.
 

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