Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Chaos said:
I see how that sounded, but it wasn't my intention.
I meant ' filling it with tons of ' fun ' stuff, like "Bad Astronomy" and " How Things Work "....
roger
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Mercutio, you teach biology in NH and get resistance to teaching evolution?
I find that interesting as I grew up in a pretty small town in NH, and took biology in high school. We were taught the standard history on theories of life (spontaneous generation, lamark, evolution), and I don't remember anyone in the class having a real problem with it, though of course some of the religious students posited that God might be directing evolution.
I wonder if creationism and, more specifically, Creation "Science", being widely discussed/aired, has had a negative impact on student's attitudes to evolution.
I find that interesting as I grew up in a pretty small town in NH, and took biology in high school. We were taught the standard history on theories of life (spontaneous generation, lamark, evolution), and I don't remember anyone in the class having a real problem with it, though of course some of the religious students posited that God might be directing evolution.
I wonder if creationism and, more specifically, Creation "Science", being widely discussed/aired, has had a negative impact on student's attitudes to evolution.
El Greco
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Kitty
Actually I also have in mind a real person who's going to die soon. She's the mother of a friend and she has an inoperable tumor. It's so obvious that she will collapse if she finds out the truth... I'm not saying her relatives should resort to woowooism (and they don't, actually) but it is very clear that the truth will be devastating.
From a skeptical point of view, I also don't think there is any reason to consider honesty as the "best" course in every case. It's true that this world needs more honesty, but I believe total honesty is plain brutal. There are many cases where it will endanger or even destroy someone's social and professional life.
Furthermore, if someone wants to convey a skeptical message to a dogmatic believer, I think that the naked truth may have completely undesirable effects. It might be far more effective to pretend you share his/her beliefs and then gradually try to convert him/her. May I ask what is your goal with your dental assistant and how do you plan to achieve it ?
Actually I also have in mind a real person who's going to die soon. She's the mother of a friend and she has an inoperable tumor. It's so obvious that she will collapse if she finds out the truth... I'm not saying her relatives should resort to woowooism (and they don't, actually) but it is very clear that the truth will be devastating.
From a skeptical point of view, I also don't think there is any reason to consider honesty as the "best" course in every case. It's true that this world needs more honesty, but I believe total honesty is plain brutal. There are many cases where it will endanger or even destroy someone's social and professional life.
Furthermore, if someone wants to convey a skeptical message to a dogmatic believer, I think that the naked truth may have completely undesirable effects. It might be far more effective to pretend you share his/her beliefs and then gradually try to convert him/her. May I ask what is your goal with your dental assistant and how do you plan to achieve it ?
Electric Monk
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I can't tell you anything about your friend's mother, but I believe that Penn's point was about respecting the strength of the other person enough to not hide or sugarcoat an important truth. I find that people in general are a lot stronger than they appear (or indeed than they believe of themselves). It might be that someone in this situation would appreciate the time to take care of unfinished business.El Greco said:
I don't know if you differ much from Penn's position on this. After a few rounds back and forth with The Bad Astronomer on the panel, it seemed to come down to not hiding your opinion for the sake of kowtowing to a majority view. Whether a specific truth is brutal enough to warrant discretion is going to vary in each individual's judgement. Penn's tolerance for brutality may a bit higher than average.
It is this sneaky type of approach to which Penn was most strongly objecting. I don't see what might be gained by outright deception. I would instead show genuine sympathy for a position honestly held by another, but would make clear that I did not share it, and why.
The opportunity may arise shortly for me. I have carpeting being installed by someone who is a bodyguard for Trinity Broadcasting Network, and who sings in the choir. I've half agreed to come over to his house and help with his computer sometime.
--James
Electric Monk
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El Greco
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Electric Monk said:
I have the feeling that sometimes this sneaky approach is your only chance for any kind of approach. Many times people will become hostile and totally unreceptive as soon as they realize that you question a belief that they value so highly to have practically based their whole life philosophy on it.
Electric Monk
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Well, I'll say that I have encountered very few people like that personally. This could certainly vary by location and what social groups you participate in.El Greco said:
I suspect that an open approach will pay dividends with even these people. Let them run away. Your words will have more effect than they seem to at first.
--James
El Greco said:
well, with the dental assistant I think my point was more for myself than her. I've listened to her for the past 5 years. I go to this office as the dentist is very good - and so is this assistant. But, I just have always wondered why she gets to talk about her beliefs, and I have always kept my mouth shut? Isn't is ok that I talk too? If I'm nice enough to listen to her, she should listen to me. She was a bit taken aback, I honestly don't think she's converted anyone at the dental office. But, I made sure she listened to me, and the dentist also heard. He actually called me this evening and said he has talked to her about talking religion in the office. I told him I didn't mind her talking about her religion if she was willing to listen to my beliefs. I'll gladly go back to her, as she is very good at her job.
As for someone that is dying, I know in other cultures there is a different belief about telling someone they are dying. I was told once (but don't know if it is true) that in Japan people are rarely if ever told they have a terminal illness.
Would I ever be as blunt as Penn? Of course not! What I was refering to is my honesty with my beliefs, not in telling my friends that new hair color really is the pits! Being an artist, I've learned the artist motto, "there are PAID critics..." which means "art is in the eye of the beholder, so keep your critism in check."
Chanileslie
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kittynh said:
Actually, Kitty, I think you won that round. You stayed true to yourself and she shut up. Good job, and a "You go, girl!"
To tell you the truth, I have always been outspoken about my lack of belief, although I don't walk in to a room and scream "I'm an atheist," but should the subject arise, I will not be quiet. And the few times I have been quiet, I was ashamed of myself later for not speaking up.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
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Kitty, I told your story to Cynthia and she was surprised you weren't busted in the chops. Be careful out there.
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
Electric Monk
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OK, one more thought on this issue that I just remembered from the panel discussion. (budddyh alluded to it in the other thread, but didn't make this point. Also, I want to ensure that at least half of my posts mention Julia. )
When Julia Sweeney's brother, Michael was dying of cancer, she tried to convince him and herself that thinking positive thoughts was going to help him get better. Penn gave Julia a call and told her that she shouldn't put that extra burden on him: that if he didn't get better, it was his fault. Julia testified that this made things easier for both herself and her brother.
--James
)When Julia Sweeney's brother, Michael was dying of cancer, she tried to convince him and herself that thinking positive thoughts was going to help him get better. Penn gave Julia a call and told her that she shouldn't put that extra burden on him: that if he didn't get better, it was his fault. Julia testified that this made things easier for both herself and her brother.
--James
Psychology...but since we are dealing with living organisms, we have to go back to natural selection for a foundation. And the first student I spoke of was an import, from Kansas. The other two were objecting more to the idea that the "human mind" isn't immune from its biological (and evolutionary) roots. Hey, we even get that view here on the forum.roger said:
On the other hand, My mom did teach biology, and in the bible belt. She found (I like this) more resistance to humans and monkeys being related than she did to humans and cows being related.
So I could have had it much worse...
roger said:
ok, i'll take that one. i taught biology, specifically an undergraduate (400 level) and graduate course in Evolution, deep, deep in the bible belt. I eventually quit after 4 years of constant harassment, a student assault, and death threats.
i was denounced from pulpits. one of my students had required weekly public confession that she was taking my class (it was required for graduation).
my student evaluations were stolen one semester and altered.
While most of my students weren't happy with the class when they started, by the end they were ok, and were even starting to think. The students i had the most trouble with were students who weren't in my class, and just assumed they knew what we were up to.
It wasn't just me--A history prof covering victorians had an almost empty class one week when he covered Origin of the Species--as a literary and historic event. They just didn't want to even hear it.
oh dear, i'm ranting here. some good books:
god's warriors, Wilcox
Conjuring Science, Toumey
God's Own Scientists, Toumey
I know Paul. I'm not the size of Penn, but I am making sure to be VERY polite (except to that dental assistant...I've been waiting for giving her just a bit of her medicine for years...)
On another note, I did come clean with my mother in law about what kind of conference Pool Boy and I had attended. I didn't say it was anything than a skeptics conference. She said that she was glad I had told her the truth, but that she wouldn't baby sit next year since she believes in UFOs (she saw one in California) and ghosts. She also hates Penn and Teller! That really set her off. She said too bad I couldn't go next year. I told her that there was a scholarship program and maybe Kitten2 should apply next year, that there were 12 year old twins at the meeting I just attended! Oopppsss! I did it again! I think she is going to apply for cutody of Kitten2. Anyway, I did come honest, and I do think she is appreciative that I have done so. I had been telling her it was just an "education conference" (which it is). But I did feel badly at taking advantage of her.
On another note, I did come clean with my mother in law about what kind of conference Pool Boy and I had attended. I didn't say it was anything than a skeptics conference. She said that she was glad I had told her the truth, but that she wouldn't baby sit next year since she believes in UFOs (she saw one in California) and ghosts. She also hates Penn and Teller! That really set her off. She said too bad I couldn't go next year. I told her that there was a scholarship program and maybe Kitten2 should apply next year, that there were 12 year old twins at the meeting I just attended! Oopppsss! I did it again! I think she is going to apply for cutody of Kitten2. Anyway, I did come honest, and I do think she is appreciative that I have done so. I had been telling her it was just an "education conference" (which it is). But I did feel badly at taking advantage of her.
i meant to add:
the Wilcox book is a scholarly historic account, but the toumey books, particularly Gods Scientists, are quite fun to read and interesting.
Kitty, I bet your mother in law comes around by next year--if nothing else, she'll want to get the kids away from your bad influence
the Wilcox book is a scholarly historic account, but the toumey books, particularly Gods Scientists, are quite fun to read and interesting.
Kitty, I bet your mother in law comes around by next year--if nothing else, she'll want to get the kids away from your bad influence
