Exactly, and even if its dead spirits that are giving JE the information afterall, then they must be able to communicate with the living fetus, and so the question still remains. Although I rather expect the "we just don't know" routine will be trotted out for this one. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about before. No one ever really questions the logic behind the "process" itself, its just assumed it works, somehow, and so then they concentrate on the results. Which is fine, but I can't be expected to take it that seriously.CFLarsen said:
Clancie said:Doesn't the Mets pennant count?Considering what a sports-minded country this is, his sports related comments are amazingly few to my way of thinking. I would think a cold reader would make that a definite part of his repertoire.
Maybe neo remembers the one with the man with a rare baseball and/or a baseball collection. The only other dramatic one I remember was about a shark attack and it turned out the boy was a huge Sharks fan.
I'm not saying that JE isn't good at what he does; I'm saying he's not doing what you think he does. As I said in my post, it would need to be a "Good Hit". I think that it has been stated clearly that although it was a sports guess with some detail, it was also not very impressive given the information known about the kid i.e…age, sports fan, Long Island fanaticism for Mets. On the surface it seemed detailed; however, it really looks like a vague warm read. Guessing a Mets fan in Long Island is like guessing jumper cables in a mechanics trunk.
This might have been an eyebrow lifting "sports" hit if it were not for the fact that JE is from the area, and the boy's death was so publicized. What I meant in my post was that his lack of knowledge of sports shouldn't matter if he's "speaking" to a dead sports fan.
Lets not forget what we're discussing here. (The Process of JE) We're covering the bases of what his process is verses the processes of cold, warm & hot readers. It was my contention that the more information we can remove from JE's knowledge about the sitter, the more impressive the reading becomes. In this case it was supposed to be sports that was being removed; in reality it wasn't removed because he (JE) knew so much about the kid and the Mets from his everyday life.
Not trying to move the goal post here, but if the dead "sports fan" was someone not mentioned in JE's local papers and not from JE's local area, he should still be able to get readings like this. Does he? Not that I've seen. Why? IMO, because he can't make good guesses about things he doesn't know about. I'm sure it will be argued here that it's because he doesn't understand the symbolism or something like that, but I feel the symbolism should be a simple matter. It's not like he's being asked to explain the infield fly rule.
dingler44 said:
Yes, and it is very interesting what the dead choose to identify themselves with. Sports, recipes, feathers, roses, cigarettes, coffins, rings, what-have-you...
But the most efficient, convincing method, their own names, or the names of their living relatives? No.
Apparently, names means nothing on the Other Side. Their initials do, though....
It is perhaps most interesting that the people who come to JE accept this.
CFLarsen said:
I remember reading in a story about bigamy that the deceived women rarely file legal complaints. A combination of embaressment and the idea that "he really, really loved me, I was the only one in his heart". Same sorta self-deceptive behavior.
Clancie said:
Hmmm. I don't remember that first one all that clearly, but while going through some of my old tapes, in an effort to find the Mike Kelly reading, as well as some others that we've had questions about for so long, I watched one reading where a dad came through to his son, and JE mentioned that the dad wanted him to bring up some sort of signed or autographed item. The son said that they had all signed a book for his parents 50th wedding anniversary or something like that, but John said that wasn't it.
He went on to say that this item was quite long, holding his hands apart wide, which is when the son stated that he did have a baseball bat that had been signed by Jose Conseco. Now I thought that was a good hit, but it did not require any knowledge of baseball or anything. JE just had the image of some long item with a signature.......neo
Ersby said:
Hi, Ersby. I do remember at least one reading where John was talking to a man and he came right out and asked him, "Are you a dad yet?" The guy almost fell out of his chair. I think he said that his wife was about five weeks pregnant, and from his reaction, I don't think they had told anyone about it yet.
.....neovoidx said:
I'm not sure who gives him this information actually, but I'd imagine it's whichever spirit energy is coming through at the time.
Yes. He did a phone reading with a young woman, and he brought up a pregnancy for her. She had been hoping for her mother to come through, and she did, with the news of a baby.
John didn't know it at the time, but this young woman and her husband had been trying to get pregnant for quite some while. In a follow-up segment, she came back on the show with her little girl, who was born on the anniversary of her grandmother's death......neo
neofight said:
Hi, Ersby. I do remember at least one reading where John was talking to a man and he came right out and asked him, "Are you a dad yet?" The guy almost fell out of his chair. I think he said that his wife was about five weeks pregnant, and from his reaction, I don't think they had told anyone about it yet.
How could this not be a hit? Only a bekiever would fall out of their chair. Come on.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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"Are you a dad yet?"
LOL. That's a question, not a hit.
LOL. That's a question, not a hit.
neofight said:
Excellent! This means that from now on, we can merely refer to the list of readings you made.
Don't tell me you finally looks through your many tapes and doesn't catalogue them...
neofight said:Hi, Ersby. I do remember at least one reading where John was talking to a man and he came right out and asked him, "Are you a dad yet?" The guy almost fell out of his chair. I think he said that his wife was about five weeks pregnant, and from his reaction, I don't think they had told anyone about it yet.
If he had already been a dad, it would have been a hit.
If his wife had just gotten pregnant, it would have been a hit.
If his wife later gets pregnant, it would have been a hit.
Which you also confirm with this "hit":
neofight said:
"Are you a dad yet" cannot be a hit, neo. If you accept this as spirit communication, then you are far more gullible than is healthy for you or anyone around you.
neofight said:
Oh sure, I'm not saying JE never asks a man if there's a pregnancy in the family or whatever, but he does seem to favour asking women, fishing for that big hit.
And I have to concur with the other posters' views of "Are you a dad yet?" being too vague. Given that JE invariably stretches a miss concerning pregnancies into "Who's pregnant?" (and in the face of further misses, he simply insists he's right and they're wrong!) I'd say that JE's pregnancy shtick falls comfortably into the cold reading/nice bit of guesswork category.
RonSceptic
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For a while there I though that there was a way in which the 'Are you a Dad yet?' punt might have been a miss. If the sitter had a child prior to the death of the 'spirit', this would be a rather unlikely question.
However, in this case JE would simply have to say something like...
'No, I'm talking about another child....'
or 'Yes, I'm being shown the child because blah blah....'
or some other such blather. It really is a heads I win, tails you lose scenario.
And frankly the question itself has a pretty high probability of success if posed to men of a certain age. So a good bet for a cold reading hit.
BTW Still no convincing respnse to my 'spice/nickname' analysis. It's about as clear an example of cold reading as you could wish to see. And it fails miserably.
However, in this case JE would simply have to say something like...
'No, I'm talking about another child....'
or 'Yes, I'm being shown the child because blah blah....'
or some other such blather. It really is a heads I win, tails you lose scenario.
And frankly the question itself has a pretty high probability of success if posed to men of a certain age. So a good bet for a cold reading hit.
BTW Still no convincing respnse to my 'spice/nickname' analysis. It's about as clear an example of cold reading as you could wish to see. And it fails miserably.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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BillHoyt said:
Here is another possibility.
Sitter: "No, I'm not a dad"
JE: "I knew that"
Because JE ASKED a question, he didn't place himself in any risk of getting a miss. Anything the sitter says will be a hit.
So you never really questioned it then, you just assumed he was getting it from the spirit. Interesting.neofight said:
So then by this you imply that spirits can communicate, or at the very least sense human presences, even fetus'. How soon in the development of the fetus is it able to be detected, communicated with by spirits, it would have to be quite early for them to know ahead of the woman who is actually pregnant. I find this all rather ridiculous myself.
That's a charming ancedote, but doesn't really have anything to do with the validity of JE's reading. If they weren't trying to get pregnant, it still would be a hit if he's talking to spirits.
Hmmm now I wonder if the baby's "soul" is capable of communication, if it can talk and such. I mean if spirits exist its obvious "souls" don't need physical brains and minds to function or communicate, whose to say then that a baby "soul" couldn't. Oh but perhaps the soul learns these things in the course of its life, and being tied to its physical body it learns things like language and all that jazz. Hmmm but then that would posit some form of connection between physical body and spirit. One would think that'd be measurable somehow. Do we have even a basic theory on how the "soul" is connected to the physical mind/brain?
Instig8R
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RonSceptic said:
Hi, RonSceptic--
IMO, the "spice/nickname" fishing routine by JE on LKL seems even more damning when compared to the specific information that JE got when performing prearranged, edited readings at the Long Island homes of survivors of 9/11 victims.
When JE visited the L.I. home of deceased firefighter Michael Kiefer, JE was able to get the exact name "Jamie", (which is the name of the deceased's fiance, Jamie Huggler, whose name and photograph appeared in the media coverage of the man's death).
However, in the unedited, random telephone readings on LKL, JE got vague messages: A "spice name", that could have been any spice, used as a name or nickname, for a living or dead person or animal.
I personally believe that JE is mostly cold-reading people in all venues. However, I just don't know how anyone can minimize the likelihood of hot-reading in situations like the pre-arranged at-home 9/11 readings.
How could such a wide variation in JE's performance in these two situations be overlooked or rationalized? To me, this raises a red flag the size of Shea Stadium.