Homeopathic tablets

[Byzantine Magpie]

Folks

Can someone help me with what these ingredients are, please?

I bought a box of 80 tablets of Brauer Sleep and Insomnia Relief. This is for a talk I'll be giving at a school on Tuesday, where I intend to start the talk by scarfing all 80 tablets.

The ingredients are listed as:

Capsicum 14C;
Chamomila 3C;
Coffea 4C;
Coffea 30C;
Gelsemium 4C;
Humulus 3C;
Hyosycamus 6C;
Passiflora 3C;
Valeriana 3C.

The first two I can guess. But the rest are a mystery.

Also, why would Coffea be included twice, whatever it is?

Any help, please?

Thanks

 

[Lisa Simpson]

For the coffea--they are two different potencies. I believe 30c is supposed to be more potent than 4c.

 

[geni]

Folks

Can someone help me with what these ingredients are, please?

I bought a box of 80 tablets of Brauer Sleep and Insomnia Relief. This is for a talk I'll be giving at a school on Tuesday, where I intend to start the talk by scarfing all 80 tablets.

The ingredients are listed as:
Capsicum 14C;

chille peppers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsicum

Chamomila 3C;

Another plant. I think there is a misspelling here and it should be Chamomilla It is used as a herbal remedy

Coffea 4C;
Coffea 30C;

coffee of course but in two different potencies (dilution factors ~100⁴ and 100³⁰ the first will still have some coffee in it)

Gelsemium 4C;

Toxic plant used in herbal medcine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelsemium_sempervirens

Humulus 3C;

Hops used to make beer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humulus

Hyosycamus 6C;

another toxic herb

Passiflora 3C;

Passion fruit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_fruit

Valeriana 3C.

another plant has been used as a remedy for insomina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(plant)


Further comments
Apart from the coffea 30C every remedy will exist in a small amount in the final product. To calculate the dilution factor use the equation "dilution factor = 100^X" where X is number before the C.
These potencies are (from what I have been able to gather) pretty typical in europe but would be considered rather low by US standards.

The nameing convention for homeopathy remedies is normaly fairly simple. For plant and animal based remedies the latin name for that plant/anaimal is used. For chemical remedies (say sodium chloride) the laTin name for the elements is used

 

[Goshawk]

... where I intend to start the talk by scarfing all 80 tablets.

PLEASE, do not do this. Unless you've made arrangements ahead of time to have yourself rushed to the hospital immediately afterwards and have your stomach pumped.

Many of these herbal remedies are harmless in tiny homepathic doses, but are quite toxic in megadoses.

So unless this is the point you want to make to your audience, please do yourself a favor and forbear.




Part of Geni's post got swallowed up in a quoting mishap. It should have read:

Hyosycamus 6C

another toxic herb!!! Do not ingest this!!!

But seriously, Hyosycamus niger, a.k.a. "henbane", even according to the alternative meds folks, is "very toxic", and one is advised to "avoid the use of this herb". I sure wouldn't scarf down 80 pills' worth of it, even in a homeopathic potentization.

And as for gelsemium, or yellow jasmine, it too is quite toxic if eaten.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/poison/Gelsese.htm

 

[Goshawk]

...This is being marketed as a sleep aid? With capsicum and caffeine in it? Which are, um, stimulants?

And, look at this:

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/g/gelsem07.html

Poisonous doses of Gelsemium produce a sensation of languor, relaxation and muscular weakness...

So, the gelsemium in the potion will only make you drowsy if it's being delivered in a large enough dose to kill you.

But if it's in a lesser dose, such as a homeopathic dilution, it won't do anything at all to make you sleepy (unless of course you eat 80 pills of it...)

And ditto for henbane.

http://www.healthyroads.com/mylibrary/data/altcaredex/htm/ame0235.asp

THE EFFECTIVE DOSE IS VERY CLOSE TO THE TOXIC DOSE: HENBANE SHOULD ONLY BE USED UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF YOUR HEALTHCARE PROVIDER.

The only things in there that are traditional herbal remedies to make you feel sleepy are hops, chamomile, and valerian. Everything else--the coffea, capsicum, henbane, and jasmine--are superfluous.

 

[geni]

...This is being marketed as a sleep aid? With capsicum and caffeine in it? Which are, um, stimulants?

Like cures like remeber?

However I would agree with recomending using something wityh higher potencies ( Pref 12Cor 24X plus)

 

[Barbrae]

DO NOT INGEST THE ENTIRE BOX - NOT ONLY IS IT EXTREMELY STUPID IT WON"T GET YOUR POINT ACROSS WHICH I ASSUME IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES AND THEY ARE JUST SUGAR PILLS BECAUSE INDEED WITH THIS PRODUCT THERE IS ACTUAL MATERIAL SUBSTANCES LEFT.

If you want to take antire bottle of a homeopathic remedy make sure it is diluted past avagadros number and preferably with a relatively benign substance. By the way, how are you giving a talk on this stuff if you aren't aware of the substances in the product or even that they are not diluted past a safe dilution. Seems odd to give a talk about something you obvioulsy don't understand.

 

[Rolfe]

Er, don't shout.

Having said that, you've got a point.

On the other hand I still don't understand a few things here.

• If a dose is a dose, irrespective of the number of tablets, why did the bottle of Belladonna I bought tell me to take two tablets at a time? Did they just want to sell twice as much? Why does the usual provings protocol that we sceptics get challenged to suggest increasing the number of tablets if at first there's no effect?
• Given the number of remedies all wrapped up in that one pill, what was that about polypharmacy being prohibited? I mean, Sigi was questioning Wim throwing three remedies at once at that cat, but that seems positively parsimonious compared to these pills.
• I thought homoeopathy treated the patient, not the disease? So how come this treats "insomnia"? Should one even use a "disease"-label rather than a patient description in homoeopathy?
• And continuing on from the previous point, what about the absolute necessity for individualisation? Without which any independent trial of any homoeopathic method is soundly condemned.

It's just that it keeps looking to me as if committed homoeopaths can do anything they like and call it homoeopathy, but then the minute anyone else tries to repeat the exercise under controlled conditions, suddenly that protocol is nonsense and not proper homoeopathy. And polypharmacy, lack of individualisation, and the idea that one remedy can be regarded as a treatment for one disease (all demonstrated by the potion under consideration) are major bones of contention in this respect.

Just one more "homoeopathic" procedure that falls foul of my "If I tried this under controlled conditions and found no difference from placebo, would the homoeopathic community then unanimously declare that the procedure was "not true homoeopathy?" test.

Rolfe.

PS. It's a bit confusing. "Alphonse" is also apparently called Barbara.

 

[epepke]

Like cures like remeber?

However I would agree with recomending using something wityh higher potencies ( Pref 12Cor 24X plus)

I used to make fun of homeopathy by talking about diluting a cup of espresso in a swimming pool full of water. I spoke too soon. I guess there's nothing too stupid that even homeopaths will not believe.

BTW, I agree with not taking all 80 tablets, but not because it will make any of the "active" ingredients significant, but because homeopaths dilute dry ingredients usually with lactose, and lactose is even outside homeopathy commonly used to make pills. That much lactose might give you the Green Apple Quick-Step. Imitating a Pepto-Bismal commercial is not generally a good way to win friends and influence people.

 

[Zep]

Your main problem as I see it, Magpie, is that there is absolutely no guarantee that the substances and dosages listed on the box are what is actually in the tablets. This is because homeopathic medicines are under no effective control regime whatsoever. Remember Pan Pharmaceuticals last year?? That's what they got done for. So the box may say what should be in it, but for all you know, it could be old cat's dander and floor sweepings going into the tablet-machine.

So I would suggest not risking yourself with those.

However, what you COULD do is to simply get 10 test-tubes and a bottle of ink, and do the 100:1 dilution process 10 times in front of everyone. Meanwhile, do the maths on a board and explain Avagadro's Number as you go, including putting the homeopathic "nomenclature" of dilutions along with it. Then the audience will see quite clearly what a con homeopathy it is - much more effectively than simply scarfing down a box of sugar-pills.

 

[Barbrae]

Er, don't shout.

Having said that, you've got a point.

On the other hand I still don't understand a few things here.

• If a dose is a dose, irrespective of the number of tablets, why did the bottle of Belladonna I bought tell me to take two tablets at a time? Did they just want to sell twice as much? Why does the usual provings protocol that we sceptics get challenged to suggest increasing the number of tablets if at first there's no effect?

• 
  
  I wasn't really shouting, just emphasizing! Regarding the above question. The majority of classical homeopaths I would say do think that the number of pellets really doesn't matter, however, I do know of several that believe the number of pellets does matter in sensitive individuals. I know Robin Murphy believes this. Typically speaking taking 1, 2 or 3 pellets is arbitrary however, since the remedy is poured onto the pellets it could be argued that it is possible some of the pellets don't get any remedy on them so to be on the safe side 2 or 3 is recommended.
  
  regarding your comment about Alphonse, if you are wondering if that is me it isn't - I would NEVER let an animal suffer for 2 years with anything and sadly, due to stupid hubbies allergies I can't have any cats.

 

[Barbrae]

Er, [*]Given the number of remedies all wrapped up in that one pill, what was that about polypharmacy being prohibited? I mean, Sigi was questioning Wim throwing three remedies at once at that cat, but that seems positively parsimonious compared to these pills.
[*]I thought homoeopathy treated the patient, not the disease? So how come this treats "insomnia"? Should one even use a "disease"-label rather than a patient description in homoeopathy?

You are correct on both of these comments. I would never use a product like that as it is not classical homeopathy for both reasons mentioned. It is based on many remedies and no individualization. However, there are pharmacies who will try to make money selling such products. I have no idea if they believe they will work or not or if they are just monetarily motivated.

 

[anonimouse]

Typically speaking taking 1, 2 or 3 pellets is arbitrary however, since the remedy is poured onto the pellets it could be argued that it is possible some of the pellets don't get any remedy on them so to be on the safe side 2 or 3 is recommended.

Could you imagine if the producers of Xanax said it was possible that some of the active ingredient may not have made each capsule, so you'll need to take two or three times the recommended dose just to be safe.

The quality control inherent in homeopathy is outstanding.

 

[Benguin]

PLEASE, do not do this. Unless you've made arrangements ahead of time to have yourself rushed to the hospital immediately afterwards and have your stomach pumped.

Many of these herbal remedies are harmless in tiny homepathic doses, but are quite toxic in megadoses.

So unless this is the point you want to make to your audience, please do yourself a favor and forbear.

I hope I'm not being dense and missing a joke somewhere ... but at those dilutions surely the chances of finding a molecule of anything (other than water/sugar) in the whole box of 80 tablets is pretty remote ?

I'm sure Geni will remind us, but I thought the avagadro's number 'point' (to butcher the chemistry!) was above 4C.

 

[Zep]

I hope I'm not being dense and missing a joke somewhere ... but at those dilutions surely the chances of finding a molecule of anything (other than water/sugar) in the whole box of 80 tablets is pretty remote ?

I'm sure Geni will remind us, but I thought the avagadro's number 'point' (to butcher the chemistry!) was above 4C.

That's quite true but only if you trust the homeopathic manufacturer to meet the (ahem) quality standards. Like I said above, there's no telling what is really in them...

 

[Barbrae]

24x or 12c is past avagadro's number

 

[Rolfe]

I hope I'm not being dense and missing a joke somewhere ... but at those dilutions surely the chances of finding a molecule of anything (other than water/sugar) in the whole box of 80 tablets is pretty remote ?

I'm sure Geni will remind us, but I thought the avagadro's number 'point' (to butcher the chemistry!) was above 4C.

No, no, Barb's right here. The Avogadro limit is 12C and 24X. So there's probably stuff in these tablets.

It's hard to work out exactly how much, as we don't know the original concentrations of anything in the "mother tincture", and if the pills were prepared by immersing them in the final solution or dropping final solution on to them, then letting them dry, it's possible there might not be an awful lot actually adhering to them in the end.

Nevertheless, we're talking appreciable quantities of botanical substances which may have undesirable effects. And almost certainly a total absence of quality control. It would be unwise to take a bottle of these things, and personally I wouldn't take even one.

As Barb pointed out, these things aren't homoeopathy. They're some scammer taking advantage of homoeopathy's exemptions from the normal medicines legislation to peddle a weird variety of herbal stuff.

Probably in pretty insignificant quantities, but who knows?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

regarding your comment about Alphonse, if you are wondering if that is me it isn't - I would NEVER let an animal suffer for 2 years with anything and sadly, due to stupid hubbies allergies I can't have any cats.

Fear not, I know you're not Alphonse! I was just struck by the coincidence of the names.

(Can't you cure your husband's allergies homoeopathically? )

I wasn't really shouting, just emphasizing! Regarding the above question. The majority of classical homeopaths I would say do think that the number of pellets really doesn't matter, however, I do know of several that believe the number of pellets does matter in sensitive individuals. I know Robin Murphy believes this. Typically speaking taking 1, 2 or 3 pellets is arbitrary however, since the remedy is poured onto the pellets it could be argued that it is possible some of the pellets don't get any remedy on them so to be on the safe side 2 or 3 is recommended.

Well first I'd reiterate sodakboy's remark about quality control. These things are supposed to be medicinal products! For God's sake whaddaya mean, some of the pills might not have any "remedy" on them??? That's appalling. (Academically speaking, that is....)

But more generally, you say some people believe this, some people believe that. This goes with Naturalhealth telling us that some people believe that remedies last forever and the expiry dates are meaningless, but others would disagree. And the disagreements we've seen regarding whether airport security scanners have any effect on the remedies, or whether coffee will inactivate some or all of the remedies.

Don't you KNOW???

Look, this isn't an art appreciation class. It's not a question of opinion or belief, or it shouldn't be. Surely any patient is entitled to ask, what are the facts?

Real medicine isn't allowed to have "beliefs" like this, or not for very long anyway. If there is a difference in opinion about how a preparation acts, or the correct dose rate, or whether the dose rate should be varied for particular groups of patients (your "sensitive individuals"), or what sort of shelf life the stuff has, work is put in hand to settle the matter and get at the truth. This is mandatory.

What does it say about homoeopathy that people are content to muddle along not knowing, or to accept these contradictions as simply matters of personal belief? If you really think you're influencing people's health here, is this a responsible attitude?

Rolfe.

 

[Goshawk]

Like cures like remeber?

Oh yeah.

 

[Byzantine Magpie]

Folks

Thanks for your advice. I'll do as you suggest and restrict the demonstration.

I was working on the basis that even the most concentrated ingredients (at 3C) were effectively diluted to 1ppm.

However, the comment about unreliable quality control is well-taken. Incidentally, the tablets are labelled glucose, not lactose.