Holocaust

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It's very difficult to get an accurate number. Documentation is sparse and contradictory. However, there seems to be a kind of consensus on the "six million" figure from what little I've read.

Also, there were lots of other people killed - not just jews; if somebody might have been jewish but was killed for some other reason, do you count them among the six million? What about people in camps who died of disease/starvation after the nazis retreated? What about somebody who was summarily executed because some nazi on the spot thought they were jewish, whereas in fact they weren't? What if multiple sources disagree on the population of some jewish village before it was wiped off the map? What about people who died after being recaptured by soviets? It would be almost impossible to count "from the bottom up". However, counting from the "top down" has just as many flaws...

But why get hung up on it? Several million jews were killed - and so were several million non-jews. That's an appalling atrocity regardless of the exact number.

The way that Holocaust figures were counted was by the following way: for every country in Europe, the estimated Jewish population before the war is compared to the number of survivors left in each country after the end of WW2. Then the number of survivors is subtracted from the number of the original pre-war population. That's how historians eached a figure of 6 million. Estimated figure, that is.

I certainly consider my father's mother and her relatives that survived to be Holocaust survivors, even though they themselves are not Jewish. I have sworn to never forget the atrocities perpetuated upon them by the Nazis and upon the Polish and Jewish people as a whole. This is enspecially important given that there are people today who claim that it didn't happen. Allthough I don't think these so-called people deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as my family, we are living proof that it did happen.

 

[Foolmewunz]

So now comes the SunniMan... The big three have arrived! Why is that not a surprise? Garden variety anti-semites, all (to borrow freely from a long ago post by, I believe, Nick Terry - or could've been KiwiWriter... which stated that there's a direct linkage, no matter how much they pretend otherwise, between Holocaust Deniers and Anti-Semites - all of 'em).

How nice of us to make a comfy home for these people. Keep 'em all in one place where you can keep an eye on 'em in their anonymity, and let the Forum world see them for what they are. Fortunately, for them, we're not allowed to, nor I assume would we want to, close the doors and slip in a little Zyklon B, so they could see, first hand, what an effective way that is to control typhus. (That's the nazis' and nazi-apologists' version of what the gas was used for. You can find reams of material on the subject in the pseudo research of Butz and his supporters, as he's their current favorite calm-headed revisionist.)

 

[Travis]

Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen is a good one. It examines the reasons ordinary Germans would do the things they did.

 

[SDC]

Goldhagen's book wasn't so well-reviewed (by scholars). My own vote for a scholarly work exploring the ordinary Germans who did the killing is Christopher Browning's appropriately named "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland." Short book, just 200 pages or so, but a prize.

 

[SDC]

Yeah... so it turned out that, base villains that they were, the Nazis didn´t keep meticulous records on all their crimes for the benefit of their enemies after the war. Inconsiderate of them, but unfortunately true.

Actually, the Holocaust is recognized as one of the best documented historical events. The German archives which have been controlled by the International Red Cross are finally being digitized and distributed to research centers in the US, Israel, and Poland (at least). I think Nick Terry has pointed out that deniers have already started on working out ways to deny the significance of the archives.

Which gives me a chance to offer (again) my own conspiracy theory. The reason that Germany lost WW2 was because so much in the way of human and material resources went into the vast deception of creating an enormous amount of false documentation of the allegedly non-existent Holocaust, that Germany was unable to defeat the Soviets and the Western Allies. Think of it ... all those bureaucrats, furiously creating precise documentation of non-existent events ...

For any literal minded folks out there, that is a sarcastic fantasy.

The real problem with the numbers, as someone has noted, is that they rely in part on pre-war censuses, which are not famous for accuracy. (Including the 1931 Polish census and 1939 Soviet most notably, the two states which provided the majority of the Jewish victims.) Remember a lot of the victims were simply rounded up, shot, and buried, especially in the Soviet Union, without any bureaucratic counting. Many others died of disease or abuse in the ghettos.

 

[Travis]

Goldhagen's book wasn't so well-reviewed (by scholars). My own vote for a scholarly work exploring the ordinary Germans who did the killing is Christopher Browning's appropriately named "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland." Short book, just 200 pages or so, but a prize.

Yes there were some issues with it but it was pretty comprehensive. I'll have to check out Brownings book.

 

[Chaos]

Actually, the Holocaust is recognized as one of the best documented historical events. The German archives which have been controlled by the International Red Cross are finally being digitized and distributed to research centers in the US, Israel, and Poland (at least). I think Nick Terry has pointed out that deniers have already started on working out ways to deny the significance of the archives.

My (sarcastic) point was that the Nazis didn´t keep a single nice, orderly, unified list with the name, place of death and cause of death of every single victim, each signed by the executioner, countersigned by the victims themselves and confirmed by a notary. That´s about the level of "evidence" which Holocaust deniers are demanding.

Which gives me a chance to offer (again) my own conspiracy theory. The reason that Germany lost WW2 was because so much in the way of human and material resources went into the vast deception of creating an enormous amount of false documentation of the allegedly non-existent Holocaust, that Germany was unable to defeat the Soviets and the Western Allies. Think of it ... all those bureaucrats, furiously creating precise documentation of non-existent events ...

For any literal minded folks out there, that is a sarcastic fantasy.

And it makes one wonder why Holocaust deniers in general admire the Nazis so much.

The real problem with the numbers, as someone has noted, is that they rely in part on pre-war censuses, which are not famous for accuracy. (Including the 1931 Polish census and 1939 Soviet most notably, the two states which provided the majority of the Jewish victims.) Remember a lot of the victims were simply rounded up, shot, and buried, especially in the Soviet Union, without any bureaucratic counting. Many others died of disease or abuse in the ghettos.

Aw, but you know that this is all part of the conspiracy, don´t you? The Poles and Soviets intentionally kept bad records, so they could inflate the numbers of jewish dead later on.

 

[bruto]

I think the deniers are just jealous that the Germans thought of it first.

 

[Dancing David]

DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE? by Richard Harwood
www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html
LECTURES ON THE HOLOCAUST by Germar Rudolf
http://vho.org/GB/Books/loth/ The author is currently in prison in "democratic" Germany for writing this book. There are other titles with revisionist/skeptic details at the following link -
http://vho.org/GB/Books/HHS.html
As for Elie Wiesel and his book NIGHT this is nothing but a pack of lies. When he was in Auschwitz, a supposed hell on earth, Wiesel had the opportunity to stay behind and be liberated by the Soviet red army or retreat with his Nazi captors. He went with the Nazis! For the lowdown on the pathological liar Wiesel see -
www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesel.shtml

Oh, so all the Germans who testified to the death camps were liars too?
And all the documents that the Germans hod on what they were doing?

You are a jerk.

 

[Dancing David]

So I started yesterday with the first book of the three and I was surprised that it's talking about five million Jews and not the six millions one always hears about.

the figure is 13 million, there were many more than just the jews of europe, the roma, the devlopmentaly disabled, the mentaly ill, the communists, socialists, masons, etc...

 

[Dancing David]

All of the Holocaust books should be in the "Fiction" section of the library.

Ah, all the books about genocide then, I suppose the Crusade did really happen.

You are a shame to all people who call themselves Islam, a liar is not adored by the BogeyMan in the sky.

 

[SDC]

Aw, but you know that this is all part of the conspiracy, don´t you? The Poles and Soviets intentionally kept bad records, so they could inflate the numbers of jewish dead later on.

Gasp!! I didn't think of that! All of a sudden, everything becomes clear...

 

[Dancing David]

No, it's in the Non Fiction Religious section.

Oh, I see, so the fairyTales of the Brothers Grimm are also non fiction.

A schizophrenic thinks that an angel talks to him and starts a fairly cool religion. Which you shame with your bigotry and prejudice. I suppose Allah (the source of wonder and life) approves of your lies and bigotry, despite the fact that his chosen Prophets (Skydaddy pile blessings upon them) told you otherwise.

Another jerk who shames the alleged god (imaginary superstition be praised) they pretend to follow.

But the devil has worked thier hatred into your heart and you follow a false idol of arrogance and hatred.

Why is it that religous haters ignore the central tenants of thier faith? I am so sure that the prohet (imagination bless him) would be so thrilled that yet another hate filled bigot pretends to follow the teachings.

Fortunatly I don't have to worry that in some after life that i will have to listen to you whine about how you were decieved by the false teachers. Nope, dead is dead.

 

[Chaos]

Gasp!! I didn't think of that! All of a sudden, everything becomes clear...

Glad to have been of service.

 

[Aquila]

How can there be a book about the Holocaust if it didnt happen?

Hello Parky,

I've seen your avatar and wondered if you were a freemason...?? Just to let you and everyone else know that there are some recent posts about the holocaust in the "Members Only" section of this forum, under the "Ask Me About Being A Freemason" thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64460&page=4

 

[ddt]

My (sarcastic) point was that the Nazis didn´t keep a single nice, orderly, unified list with the name, place of death and cause of death of every single victim, each signed by the executioner, countersigned by the victims themselves and confirmed by a notary. That´s about the level of "evidence" which Holocaust deniers are demanding.

Nominated.

But the scenario would fit in with the German renown for bureaucracy, wouldn't it?

 

[Chaos]

*snip*
But the scenario would fit in with the German renown for bureaucracy, wouldn't it?

Dude, I´ve lived in Germany for all my life, and I can tell you that, while we are really good at creating bureaucracies, we are really bad at creating *effective* bureaucracies.

But then, the real masters of bureaucracy can be found with the European Union. It is a sadly underappreciated fact that the Regulation on the Import of Toffee in European Union Member States is about 100 times as wordy as the Declaration of Independence, despite its slightly less world-shattering content.

 

[SDC]

Dude, I´ve lived in Germany for all my life, and I can tell you that, while we are really good at creating bureaucracies, we are really bad at creating *effective* bureaucracies.

But then, the real masters of bureaucracy can be found with the European Union. It is a sadly underappreciated fact that the Regulation on the Import of Toffee in European Union Member States is about 100 times as wordy as the Declaration of Independence, despite its slightly less world-shattering content.

Link? Please, honest. ETA: German or French welcome as well as English.

 

[ddt]

Dude, I´ve lived in Germany for all my life, and I can tell you that, while we are really good at creating bureaucracies, we are really bad at creating *effective* bureaucracies.

I didn't say anything about "effective", only about reputation. BTW, you forgot the stamps. A real bureaucracy needs not only signatures on the forms, but also stamps; many stamps .

My personal experience - I lived a couple of years in Germany in the early 90s - doesn't indicate that German bureaucracies are very ineffective. The only difference I noticed with the Dutch bureaucracies I have encountered were cultural - e.g., a pre-occupation with forms, witness the German term "formloses Schreiben" (a non-form letter) that is used every time when you can do something without using a form.

This post is a derail anyway, so let's do one story. One of the first things that I needed to do after moving was to apply with a public sector health insurer. The system of health insurance in Germany was quite familiar to me, as that system had been exported to Holland in 1940-1945 . After some enquiry with my colleagues, I settled on a branch-specific insurer and phoned their local office. It turned out I was a couple of days too late - officially, I should have registered within a week - but they were happy to take my application over the phone. That sounded quite unbureaucratic to me. That's all I had to do to get registered for all social security things.

However, half a year later I got my "social security passport" in the mail, from a wholly different social security institution. It contained a spelling error in my name - whereas my Dutch surname ends in "-man" (indeed, man in English), it now ended with "-mann", as is to be expected with German names. I wrote a letter to complain my name had been Germanized and if they would fix it. I got a letter back: two pages full, with deep apologies and an explanation how it had come. And I hadn't even made my PhD yet . I would have never expected such courtesy from a Dutch bureaucracy.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Nominated.

For what?

we are really bad at creating *effective* bureaucracies.

Effective does not equal quick.

I got a letter back: two pages full, with deep apologies and an explanation how it had come. And I hadn't even made my PhD yet . I would have never expected such courtesy from a Dutch bureaucracy.

That's how much we hate foreigners. Go ask the Turks who always complain we Germans don't do enough for their integration. I think it's time for an integration summit for migrants with Dutch heritage and roots.