Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 13,749
http://victimsofvitamins.blogspot.com/
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2000/08/21/hlsa0821.htm
Bottom line is that the products may or may not contain what they say they do. They will not be tested for effectiveness, and don't work, and may be harmful. Quite often there is a disagreement over what the active ingredient is, and the amount active ingredient will vary from what the label says.
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:91088:200409:mcfmeikljhainbamlkge
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2000/08/21/hlsa0821.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14581247&dopt=Abstract
Bottom line is that the products may or may not contain what they say they do. They will not be tested for effectiveness, and don't work, and may be harmful. Quite often there is a disagreement over what the active ingredient is, and the amount active ingredient will vary from what the label says.
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:91088:200409:mcfmeikljhainbamlkge
Epepke
Do you have any sources to the research done on St John's Wort ?
Yes I know herbs aren't always necessarily safer than conventional medication ie if this was true Ricin & Belladonna would be safe.
The thing about Clorox & Betadine is that although it may be safe and effective for topical / gargling use, it can't be used internally and this is where most serious infections occur.
It is unfair to compare antibiotics like Amoxycillin in vitro to Garlic compounds? Well yes but a limited number of studies have shown in vivo efficacy of the active Garlic compound Allicin when used systemically. The whole point of an antibiotic like Amoxycillin is to survive the gut and be absorbed. You're half right here ... the infectious agent would have to be sensitive or it wouldn't have any effect even if it was absorbed. Good absorption of an anti-microbial like Amoxycillin is usually a good thing but not in all cases eg before Amoxycillin became widely available doctor's would have used the parent compound Ampicillin - the reason it was widely replaced by Amoxil is that it didn't have as good absorption and bioavailability when administered orally and needed to be given in higher, more frequent oral doses to be as effective in bacterial infections eg ear, nose, throat, respiratory tract and soft tissues, but the disadvantage of this is that it doesn't reach as high GI levels and is less effective in treating infections occuring there eg bacillary dysentry and therefore Ampicillin is still preferred to Amoxil for infections like this caused by sensitive organisms and is also generally still preferred for use by injection.
Most currently available Garlic pills would be ineffective anyway as the active compound in raw garlic isn't included in them not in the least because of it's smell. Garlic may also be effective against E.coli 0157.
I must admit I thought the standard preparation for warts was based on Salicylic acid mixed with collodion and not acetic acid. My gran's old cure for warts was to spit on them first thing when you wake up in the morning. I've had more than my fair share of warts and verrucae - I had them frozen.
Dr Adequate
The Microbiologists investigating the Garlic compound were strangely optimistic that MRSA would be incapable of developing resistance to it but I don't know why. They may be correct however - Garlic has been used medicinally for many years even though evidence of it's effectiveness has only been found recently and no resistance has yet been discovered where as it took S.aureus isolates developed resistance to Penicillin G and Methicillin very quickly after they came into medical use and has also developed resistance to every other modern anti-microbial drug. Of course resistance may still develop - some scientists were naive enough to think that S.aureus would never become resistant to Vancomycin but sadly it still managed to do so.
See this site:
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/5/garlic.htm
Articles are also available on PubMed.
Strange that it mentioned the Foxglove having no medicinal properties. As far as I'm aware the study of Digitalis first came about when a man had heart trouble many years ago and the conventional doctors who knew very little at the time failed to cure him so he went to a gypsy who made him herbal tea containing Foxglove and he appeared to improve.
Other examples of medicines of plant origin would be Quinine ( from the Cinchona tree), Taxol and Ergotamine from Ergot fungus ( poison rye fungus ).
Do you have any sources to the research done on St John's Wort ?
Yes I know herbs aren't always necessarily safer than conventional medication ie if this was true Ricin & Belladonna would be safe.
The thing about Clorox & Betadine is that although it may be safe and effective for topical / gargling use, it can't be used internally and this is where most serious infections occur.
It is unfair to compare antibiotics like Amoxycillin in vitro to Garlic compounds? Well yes but a limited number of studies have shown in vivo efficacy of the active Garlic compound Allicin when used systemically. The whole point of an antibiotic like Amoxycillin is to survive the gut and be absorbed. You're half right here ... the infectious agent would have to be sensitive or it wouldn't have any effect even if it was absorbed. Good absorption of an anti-microbial like Amoxycillin is usually a good thing but not in all cases eg before Amoxycillin became widely available doctor's would have used the parent compound Ampicillin - the reason it was widely replaced by Amoxil is that it didn't have as good absorption and bioavailability when administered orally and needed to be given in higher, more frequent oral doses to be as effective in bacterial infections eg ear, nose, throat, respiratory tract and soft tissues, but the disadvantage of this is that it doesn't reach as high GI levels and is less effective in treating infections occuring there eg bacillary dysentry and therefore Ampicillin is still preferred to Amoxil for infections like this caused by sensitive organisms and is also generally still preferred for use by injection.
Most currently available Garlic pills would be ineffective anyway as the active compound in raw garlic isn't included in them not in the least because of it's smell. Garlic may also be effective against E.coli 0157.
I must admit I thought the standard preparation for warts was based on Salicylic acid mixed with collodion and not acetic acid. My gran's old cure for warts was to spit on them first thing when you wake up in the morning. I've had more than my fair share of warts and verrucae - I had them frozen.
Dr Adequate
The Microbiologists investigating the Garlic compound were strangely optimistic that MRSA would be incapable of developing resistance to it but I don't know why. They may be correct however - Garlic has been used medicinally for many years even though evidence of it's effectiveness has only been found recently and no resistance has yet been discovered where as it took S.aureus isolates developed resistance to Penicillin G and Methicillin very quickly after they came into medical use and has also developed resistance to every other modern anti-microbial drug. Of course resistance may still develop - some scientists were naive enough to think that S.aureus would never become resistant to Vancomycin but sadly it still managed to do so.
See this site:
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/5/garlic.htm
Articles are also available on PubMed.
Strange that it mentioned the Foxglove having no medicinal properties. As far as I'm aware the study of Digitalis first came about when a man had heart trouble many years ago and the conventional doctors who knew very little at the time failed to cure him so he went to a gypsy who made him herbal tea containing Foxglove and he appeared to improve.
Other examples of medicines of plant origin would be Quinine ( from the Cinchona tree), Taxol and Ergotamine from Ergot fungus ( poison rye fungus ).
epepke
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,264
jambo372 said:
They've all been posted here.
Quite true. However, garlic is very much changed by the gut. Which is pretty much expected when you drop something into concentrated hydrochloric acid, which I remind you, is the strongest acid there is. So it only makes sense to talk about the metabolites of garlic.
Maybe they have. As I said, if there is some magic in garlic associated with a metabolite, then I think we'll probably see it on the shelves pretty soon. And then it won't be called "herbal" any more.
You're quite right here, but I think you are missing the point. Amoxicillin and ampicillin and erythromycin and doxycyclene and ciproflaxin and all those antibiotics that we all know and love are changed by their passage through the gut, and it is the changed substances, the metabolites, that do the work. Just grinding up a pill and putting it in a Petri dish is not guaranteed to have the same effect. Just like if you take aspirin, in the gut, it becomes sodium-acetyl-salicilate. That's the thing that does the work, not the aspirin per se.
Salicylic acid is also included in many preparations, possibly because it makes them hurt less, but maybe because it has some effect as well. But if you look at the bottle, it has acetic acid in it.
My father swore by fuming nitric acid. He said it worked great on warts. It's certainly possible that any acid that is strong enough will do.
But vinegar? At 5% acidity or less? I doubt it. (Whatever 5% acidity means. I go by pH or molar. But it's still not much, whatever.)
Which reminds me of a palindrome. Straw? No, too stupid a fad. I put soot on warts.
Soot (or, rather ash) would of course be alkaline. I never tried an alkaline on a wart. It might work, though. A bit of potassium hydroxide, maybe?
Epepke
True- the active metabolites do work but it has been shown in a limited number of studies that Allicin capsules have produced effects comparable to antibiotics on nosocomial MRSA wound infections, giving some evidence suggesting it is probably active in vivo.
I am not saying that vinegar works on warts - I'd probably recommend something stronger, I've got an aunt who uses vinegar for every ailment and cleaning job under the sun though.
True- the active metabolites do work but it has been shown in a limited number of studies that Allicin capsules have produced effects comparable to antibiotics on nosocomial MRSA wound infections, giving some evidence suggesting it is probably active in vivo.
I am not saying that vinegar works on warts - I'd probably recommend something stronger, I've got an aunt who uses vinegar for every ailment and cleaning job under the sun though.
Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 13,749
Dr Adequate
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2004
- Messages
- 17,766
You really shouldn't do this. "As far as I'm aware". You're not sure, are you? This is something you heard from Some Bloke In A Pub. This is like citing "a white witch" as a source. THEY ARE NOT COMPLETELY RELIABLE.jambo372 said:
Interesting thread, though.
epepke
Philosopher
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,264
jambo372 said:
That's backward reasoning, though. That some antibiotics may have some effects in vitro does not mean that you can work back from the effectiveness of the metabolites back to the capsules in vitro. That is, if you find an oral antibiotic which doesn't work if you grind it up and put it in a dish, it doesn't mean squat.
Well when it comes to the medicinal qualities of herbs and chemicals they would be a great deal less reliable than, say, a doctor, or chemist or botanist.
When we talk about the active ingredients of certain plants we can discuss studies that have analysed these plants and their effects.
Someone who describes themselves as "A White Witch" will more likely be talking about anecdotal evidence and wisdom handed down over generations that may or may not be completely false. They are unlikely to be talking about chemical ingredients.
If they do discuss the chemical properties then fair enough.
Well firstly you wouldn't cite an average person off the street as a source of medical knowledge so the comparison is valid.
Secondly when you say a "trained herbalist" I am wondering what you mean, because at the moment there appear to be many levels of herbalism and what people consider herbalism to be.
From entiterely scientific analysts of the properties of plants all the way through to totally bogus old-wives tales treatments.
The whole field of herbalism seems to be very muddled, which is a shame, because real useful treatments could get buried in amongst the bogus so people find it hard to know what is true and what isn't.
Out of interest what training has your friend the White Witch had?
Secondly when you say a "trained herbalist" I am wondering what you mean, because at the moment there appear to be many levels of herbalism and what people consider herbalism to be.
From entiterely scientific analysts of the properties of plants all the way through to totally bogus old-wives tales treatments.
The whole field of herbalism seems to be very muddled, which is a shame, because real useful treatments could get buried in amongst the bogus so people find it hard to know what is true and what isn't.
Out of interest what training has your friend the White Witch had?
Dr Adequate
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2004
- Messages
- 17,766
It doesn't matter what she was qualified in. What matters is the way the information was obtained. If by scientific trials on people suffering from seizures, then mugwort prevents seizures. Had your white witch done such a trial? Has she read a report of such a trial? If not, then she's talking about something she doesn't really know --- something she was told, doubtless, as part of her training. But, Jambo, not everything we hear is true.jambo372 said:
jambo372 said:
For exactly this reason, I don't take medical advice from MOST people. I have enough ignorance lying around my house that I don't need to import it specially.
("Ah, but you see, she wasn't just ignorant! She was SPECIALLY TRAINED in ignorance! This makes her ignorance of much higher quality than MOST ignorance. Why, she can kill you slowly and painfully through her ignorance instead of quickly like MOST people.")
phildonnia
Master Poster
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,439
No, no, it's cider not cider vinegar. And in sufficient quantities, it cures a cough until the morning. Brandy works too.jambo372 said:
Such as "Hey! There's no dressing on my salad!"
I've used aloe (directly from the plant) on sunburn, and it seems to work for me. I'd have to say I believe this one, although I don't know if the same effect would be had from putting any old slime on my skin.
She got her information from a report.
She had done several courses in herbalism, crystal healing and aromatherapy.
See these pages on Mugwort:
http://www.cherylsherbs.com/FAQ_6.htm
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/mugwor61.html
I don't know what you're saying about killing someone with herbs; you don't need training to do that - I know lots of herbs which could be used.
She had done several courses in herbalism, crystal healing and aromatherapy.
See these pages on Mugwort:
http://www.cherylsherbs.com/FAQ_6.htm
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/mugwor61.html
I don't know what you're saying about killing someone with herbs; you don't need training to do that - I know lots of herbs which could be used.