Help me out..

[MickinEngland]

Some people say the Bible is full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies, but in the next breath they say the Bible has been edited and 'prettied up' by translators over the centuries to make it look good.
So what I can't understand is why -if that's true - have they left all the jarring bits in instead of deleting them?

 

[Orangutan]

What do you think?

 

[JonnyFive]

Some people say the Bible is full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies, but in the next breath they say the Bible has been edited and 'prettied up' by translators over the centuries to make it look good.
So what I can't understand is why -if that's true - have they left all the jarring bits in instead of deleting them?

So what's your argument? Are you saying that the Bible is full of flaws, contradictions, and inconsistencies? Are you saying that the Bible was "prettied up" to make it look better?

And why do you believe these two things to be mutually exclusive?

Part of the issue that some people (including me) have with the Bible is the inconsistency between the claimed qualities of the Christian God (all-loving and all-merciful come to mind), versus the behaviors attributed to that God, such as burning whole cities because of their sins, condemning people to the lake of fire for enternity for disbelieving, and requiring belief in a set of ancient stories with no supporting evidence as a prerequesite for not burning forever.

Yes, I know I'm over-simplifying the issues with the Bible, but your argument seems very simplistic. The issue isn't only with the textual problems with the Bible, but with the philosophical inconsistencies it raises.

But I'm sure there are plenty of "outs" to these issues. You know, God is mysterious and we can't understand him at all. Too bad that opens a whole new can of worms regarding the validity of any human theology. Oh well.

 

[Ducky]

Why do you want others to think for you?

Come up with a premise. Research that premise. Analyze the data. Correct premise if needed based on evidence.

That last part is the hardest for believers.

 

[Orangutan]

Why do you want others to think for you?

Well I expect that's how his knowledge has so far been imparted. Authority figures telling him what and how to think. He's posted here 10 time's already, and has a certain 'Jack Chick'-ness to his posts, as though quoting the Bible is all the authority he needs. He's seen other people do it so why not him?

Edit: Sorry Mick I forgot to welcome you. Hi Welcome. If you can come up with an interesting argument you will find plenty here to discuss it with you. But using the circular argument of The Bible is true because the bible says it's true won't get you very far, they're a pretty tough crowd.

 

[Ducky]

Well I expect that's how his knowledge has so far been imparted. Authority figures telling him what and how to think. He's posted here 10 time's already, and has a certain 'Jack Chick'-ness to his posts, as though quoting the Bible is all the authority he needs. He's seen other people do it so why not him?

In that case, it is now his turn to think for himself.

OK Mick:

State your premise. Support it with evidence (empirical would be nice) and then discuss.

We will analyze your proposition and evidence for you.

Remember not to ignore any evidence in order to make it fit the premise.

 

[MickinEngland]

What do you think?

I tend to think the bible has come down to us unchanged over the centuries warts and all because all the jarring bits have been left in.
For example if it wanted to make Jesus look good, it wouldn't have said some of his miracles apparently flopped -
"..he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58 )

And There's no attempt to cover up the fact Moses was a murderer -
"One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand" (Exodus 2:11)

In fact many prophets certainly weren't role models and the Bible doesn't try to pretend otherwise, even Jesus wasn't much to look at -"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2)

And Paul was nothing to write home about -
"For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful, but his appearance is unimpressive, and he speaks poorly" (2 Cor 10:10)

And Moses admitted to being unable to think on his feet- "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, i'm slow of speech and tongue." (Exodus 4:10)

And Jonah was so scared he refused pointblank to be a prophet and jumped on a ship to escape, bad call - "Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish." (Jonah 1:3)


And young Jeremiah tried to talk his way out of the job - "Lord i'm no good at speaking, i'm too young and people won't take me seriously" (Jer 1:6)


And even Jesus's human half showed fear - "Oh God I don't want to die tomorrow, get me out of it if you can" (Matt 26:42)

The moral of all this? - many Biblical people were as ordinary as you and me..
-------------------------------------------------------

 

[JonnyFive]

The moral of all this? - many Biblical people were as ordinary as you and me.

All right, that's certainly true.

Now, why does the God of the Bible show so many human characteristics? God is described as becoming angry and vengful, wiping out humanity because they were "sinful", or banishing humanity from paradise for disobeying him.

So, then, why is God also described as being merciful and graceful? Using the standard definition of mercy, a perfectly merciful being would forgive a human rather than condemn them to eternal torment for not believing. A merciful God, again using the standard definition of the word "mercy", would not allow humanity to suffer for a simple mistake.

But, I suppose, there is a special definition of the word "mercy" that applies only to God.

If not, then you have to admit that the Biblical God is hardly a perfect being. He is often quite murderous, blood thirsty, unforgiving, petty, and cruel. Granted, he also displays love, kindness, mercy, and grace... but those are human qualities as well.

How is the God of the Bible any better than the humans of the Bible? Because he has more power? Because he can save you from eternal torment (that he created, but never mind that) if you put blind faith in him?

 

[KingMerv00]

I tend to think the bible has come down to us unchanged over the centuries warts and all because all the jarring bits have been left in.
For example if it wanted to make Jesus look good, it wouldn't have said some of his miracles apparently flopped -
"..he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58 )

And There's no attempt to cover up the fact Moses was a murderer -
"One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand" (Exodus 2:11)

In fact many prophets certainly weren't role models and the Bible doesn't try to pretend otherwise, even Jesus wasn't much to look at -"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2)

And Paul was nothing to write home about -
"For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful, but his appearance is unimpressive, and he speaks poorly" (2 Cor 10:10)

And Moses admitted to being unable to think on his feet- "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, i'm slow of speech and tongue." (Exodus 4:10)

And Jonah was so scared he refused pointblank to be a prophet and jumped on a ship to escape, bad call - "Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish." (Jonah 1:3)


And young Jeremiah tried to talk his way out of the job - "Lord i'm no good at speaking, i'm too young and people won't take me seriously" (Jer 1:6)


And even Jesus's human half showed fear - "Oh God I don't want to die tomorrow, get me out of it if you can" (Matt 26:42)

The moral of all this? - many Biblical people were as ordinary as you and me..
-------------------------------------------------------

Seems like a no-win proposition for Christianity. Either the Bible was edited heavily and therefore isn't divine truth or it left in "jarring bits" that are revolting. Why should we follow the teachings of murderers or their murderous God?

 

[Orangutan]

Thank's Mick, You are doing very well, you are at least questioning why that stuff would have been left in there.

My personal belief is that the Bible is a mish-mash of varying tales, the jarring inconsistencies come from the mish-mash of tales. also the tales were told in a time where some of the stuff we find awful now was pretty ok by the standards back then. "Killed somebody!!! oh it was only an Egyptian, no bother".

So do you believe that the Bible is anything more than a bunch of tales some of which may have merit and can teach us about human nature?

 

[fuelair]

Have you checked his other threads - he has started several and all I have seen are Jesus something or other. I begin (well, began - about three posts ago) to smell Troll.

 

[KingMerv00]

Have you checked his other threads - he has started several and all I have seen are Jesus something or other. I begin (well, began - about three posts ago) to smell Troll.

How can you tell the difference between a troll and a true believer?

 

[MickinEngland]

Now, why does the God of the Bible show so many human characteristics? God is described as becoming angry and vengful, wiping out humanity because they were "sinful", or banishing humanity from paradise for disobeying him

Let's get away from the idea of God being a 'person'..
If we regard the earth and the universe as a vast delicate dream-web in which we're all embedded, things begin to fall into place...The normal state of the web is stable, but if people in one area pluck it by radiating nonchristian vibes, it begins jangling and triggers earthquakes and calamities over its whole surface.
Dreams and webs are very fragile things..

 

[Ducky]

Let's get away from the idea of God being a 'person'..
If we regard the earth and the universe as a vast delicate dream-web in which we're all embedded, things begin to fall into place...The normal state of the web is stable, but if people in one area pluck it by radiating nonchristian vibes, it begins jangling and triggers earthquakes and calamities over its whole surface.
Dreams and webs are very fragile things..

Evasion noted through strawman. The rest of the post is meaningless psuedo-scientific babble.

 

[MickinEngland]

So do you believe that the Bible is anything more than a bunch of tales some of which may have merit and can teach us about human nature?

Remember the bible isn't just one book, it's 66 which form a fascinating catalogue of human close encounters with an invisible entity throughout many centuries,heck there are even UFO's, aliens, giants, ghosts, dragons and dinosaurs etc in there..
So to dismiss all 66 would look a bit silly, hey we could turn it into a line-dance song..

"Go red in the face,splutter and spout,
stamp that li'l old foot, frown and pout, yee-haw"
Chorus -
Genesis- NOT TRUE!
Exodus- NOT TRUE!
Leviticus- NOT TRUE!
Numbers- NOT TRUE!
Deuteronomy- NOT TRUE!
Joshua- NOT TRUE!
Judges- NOT TRUE!
Ruth- NOT TRUE!
1 Samuel- NOT TRUE!
2 Samuel- NOT TRUE!
1 Kings- NOT TRUE!
2 Kings- NOT TRUE!
1 Chronicles- NOT TRUE!
2 Chronicles- NOT TRUE!
Ezra- NOT TRUE!
Nehemiah- NOT TRUE!
Esther- NOT TRUE!
Job- NOT TRUE!
Psalms- NOT TRUE!
Proverbs- NOT TRUE!
Ecclesiastes- NOT TRUE!
Song of Solomon- NOT TRUE!
Isaiah- NOT TRUE!
Jeremiah- NOT TRUE!
Lamentations- NOT TRUE!
Ezekiel- NOT TRUE!
Daniel- NOT TRUE!
Hosea- NOT TRUE!
Joel- NOT TRUE!
Amos- NOT TRUE!
Obadiah- NOT TRUE!
Jonah- NOT TRUE!
Micah- NOT TRUE!
Nahum- NOT TRUE!
Habakkuk- NOT TRUE!
Zephaniah- NOT TRUE!
Haggai- NOT TRUE!
Zecharia- NOT TRUE!
Malachi- NOT TRUE!
Matthew- NOT TRUE!
Mark- NOT TRUE!
Luke- NOT TRUE!
John- NOT TRUE!
The Acts- NOT TRUE!
Romans- NOT TRUE!
1 Corinthians- NOT TRUE!
2 Corinthians- NOT TRUE!
Galatians- NOT TRUE!
Ephesians- NOT TRUE!
Phillipians- NOT TRUE!
Colossians- NOT TRUE!
1 Thessalonians- NOT TRUE!
2 Thessalonians- NOT TRUE!
1 Timothy- NOT TRUE!
2 Timothy- NOT TRUE!
Titus- NOT TRUE!
Philemon- NOT TRUE!
Hebrews- NOT TRUE!
James- NOT TRUE!
1 Peter- NOT TRUE!
2 Peter- NOT TRUE!
1 John- NOT TRUE!
2 John- NOT TRUE!
3 John- NOT TRUE!
Jude- NOT TRUE!
Revelation- NOT TRUE!
------------------------

 

[MickinEngland]

Come up with a premise. Research that premise. Analyze the data. Correct premise if needed based on evidence.
That last part is the hardest for believers.

Ha ha ha, Jesus said none of us weak-minded humans can see the Big Picture and I fully accept that and admit I don't know everything..
Jesus said:-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)

 

[MickinEngland]

Have you checked his other threads - he has started several and all I have seen are Jesus something or other. I begin (well, began - about three posts ago) to smell Troll.

But this is the religion section so its inevitable the name Jesus will crop up now and again, sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable..

 

[Phil]

Let's get away from the idea of God being a 'person'..
If we regard the earth and the universe as a vast delicate dream-web in which we're all embedded, things begin to fall into place...The normal state of the web is stable, but if people in one area pluck it by radiating nonchristian vibes, it begins jangling and triggers earthquakes and calamities over its whole surface.
Dreams and webs are very fragile things..

We can regard the Earth and universe as a gumdrop house on Lollypop Lane if it makes you feel better, but things don't fall into any place other those dictated by natural processes, regardless of what kind of vibe people are radiating.

 

[Kopji]

Some people say the Bible is full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies, but in the next breath they say the Bible has been edited and 'prettied up' by translators over the centuries to make it look good.
So what I can't understand is why -if that's true - have they left all the jarring bits in instead of deleting them?

We don't all really agree that the Bible looks all that good. Many of us would probably stop after the word 'edited'.

And maybe the honest answer is that the Bible editors saw nothing wrong with slavery, murder or torture in the service of God. There was no reason to remove anything.

And cheer up, billions of people around the world still believe in traditional Biblical morals.

 

[HappyDance]

Wasn't this guy suspended yesterday, under a different name? I call sock puppet.

What was that name again? FlimFlam? RamJet? Troy? Oh, now I remember: JamRan.

L