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Guns.

The cessation of the metobolism resulting from a hole in a vital spot of a human body created by a bullet launched from a barrel of a gun with suffcient velocity doesn't kill people.

The cessation of brain wave fuctions resulting from the cessation of the metabolism, caused by a hole in a vital spot of a human body created by a bullet launched from a barrel of a gun with suffcient velocity kills people.

The next expansion probably gets a bit woo-woo.

Regarding outlawing guns... in America--no way. I don't like guns myself, but on principle I think there is a right to own them if you pass a reasonable background check. And in practice I certainly believe this issue is too low-priority for today's times. We need to focus on civil rights, foreign policy, and other domestic issues right now. Gun control is like #81 on my list.
 
Interesting that you pick on the "anti-choice" people as being "one-issue voters." You wouldn't characterize the "anti-life" people the same way?

Pro-choice voters are not as monomanical vis-a-vis abortion.

Anyway, if you're saying that the "pro-gun" minority beats the anti-gun majority every election, all that tells me is that the pro-gun minority cares more about keeping their guns than the anti-gun majority does about taking them away.

You're just peddling a straw man. The "anti-gun majority" does not favor taking guns away. That's NRA propaganda. And yes, of course the pro-gun minority "cares more about keeping their guns." Why else do you think I would characterize them as "significant" and "intense"?

The Constitution doesn't define a militia.

Excuse me. I should have been more careful in composing my reply in under four minutes. The Constitution certainly identifies the militia and its role (compare with the national guard).

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

If the NRA's Constitutional interpretation was as strong as they claim, then they would be challenging the law through the courts. Instead their considerable resources have been devoted to carrying the legislature.

In other words, the Constitution means whatever we decide we want it to mean this week.

Another poorly constructed straw man. Are you familiar with the concept of "precedent"? I'm thinking more along the lines of generational change, not week to week change (which is utterly impractical). As Jefferson also famously said (paraphrasing), "the tree of liberty should be refreshed with the blood of patriots from time to time." He was rather fond of a revolution every 25 years. Oh, but sure, we can leave it to Scalia and Thomas to tell us what the Constitution "really" means :rolleyes:

I don't understand your point. The 7th amendment deals with the right to trial by jury.

*Sigh* It goes to overly literal (read: fundamentalist) interpretations of the Constitution. Trial by jury under what circumstances? In cases exceeding 20 dollars.

In order to keep you from looking like a silly biggot I will add to your post:

Also there is an even MORE significant, media led, anti gun religion.

Gosh, thanks for stepping in and preventing me from looking like a silly "biggot".

The people on the gun control side are not (generally) nearly as emotionally invested in the issue, which leads to aforementioned collective action problems and election losses. Take note, for example, of the hysterical reactions from people when confronted with the idea of merely registering and licensing guns.

Now there are some on the Left -- I met one just this weekend, in fact -- who are fanatically pro-gun (Alexander Cockburn comes to mind). But of course, as I think Chomsky once observed, there's a difference between gun restrictions in Chiapas, Mexico versus Seattle, Washington.

Also, it's worth noting the most important libertarian philosopher, Robert Nozick, agrees gun restrictions are consistent with the minimal state. I mean, it's an outlandish idea. This American phenomenon (and again, it comes from a vocal minority) -- the senselessness of it all -- is evident when we poll the beliefs of our slightly more enlightened neighbors across the Atlantic. It's just silly fundamentalism -- not unlike, anti-choice fanaticism and pro-creationist B.S. Indeed, there's significant overlap. Oh, but I'm sure Norway will become a tyrannical police state any day, being on the road to serfdom and all that...
 
Pro-choice voters are not as monomanical vis-a-vis abortion.
Could it be that those people who feel that abortion is murder drives up furver more than those who feel outlawing it would deny woman's rights drives up furver? And could it be that that's completely rational?

Aaron
 
Pro-choice voters are not as monomanical vis-a-vis abortion.
Could it be that those people who feel that abortion is murder drives up furver more than those who feel outlawing it would deny woman's rights drives up furver? And could it be that that's completely rational?

Sure; also keep in mind that this "furver" tends to be motiviated by religious belief. Not that any of this matters.
 
Pro-choice voters are not as monomanical vis-a-vis abortion.
And your evidence supporting this statement is...

Excuse me. I should have been more careful in composing my reply in under four minutes. The Constitution certainly identifies the militia and its role (compare with the national guard).
You said "defines" the militia, not identifies. And it doesn't even do that.

If the NRA's Constitutional interpretation was as strong as they claim, then they would be challenging the law through the courts.
What law? :confused:

Instead their considerable resources have been devoted to carrying the legislature.
That's because legislatures are the tool through which the people express their will, not the courts. The courts' job is to say what the law is, not what the particular judge some lobbying group has hunted up thinks it should be.

Funny, you addressed every point in my post except the one I thought was most interesting: If the second amendment were to be repealed, would gun owners have the right to keep their guns, on the same constitutional grounds that women have the right to abortions?
 
For me, in the UK, I think we have gone a bit too far in the outlawing stakes, since a number of entertaining weapons are now illegal thanks to one or two nutters. Even so I don't think people should be carrying any sort of weapon around in public. It's a cultural thing. You'll never get any agreement.

Honestly, despite what you may have heard, Americans don't go around wearing sidearms in holsters strapped to their legs.

In the most liberal (read conservative, or something) states, one can get a CCW permit, but only with some serious registration and some training.
 
You may get some sensible answers, but what is your opinion?

I don't know. I don't mind people having guns. I do think that there should be more control, at least in my country, for gun ownership. But this belief could be based on false assumptions and faulty logic, so I am willing to be educated.

(which is where I assume you're posting from, given the assumption that we know who "we" is supposed to be),

Lmao. I'm an idiot.
 
Honestly, despite what you may have heard, Americans don't go around wearing sidearms in holsters strapped to their legs.

At least in some parts of AZ you'll see people toting guns cowboy style. Though it seems the persons doing this tend to have been most likely victimized in the past much more by ridicule than violence.

Oh, and thanks, Bikewer, for some reasonable perspective.
 
And your evidence supporting this statement is...

The empirical evidence supporting that contention is not controversial. I can cite three sources off the top of my head: Saletan's abortion book; Greenberg's _Two Americas_; and Geoffrey's Layman's more academic work on religion _The Great Divide_. And as I noted in a previous reply to Aaron: not that any of this matters. A brief rant...

RANT! You're so pathetic, so utterly incapable of grasping the most basic truths about the dynamics of the American electorate, that you would attempt these shameful meanderings. Recall how we got to this point: you alleged an inconsistency between myself and some other poster. I used anti-choice activists as but one example of single-issue voters. Then you asked why. My goodness, I have better things to do. Please stop wasting my time with these clumsy red-herrings.


You said "defines" the militia, not identifies. And it doesn't even do that.

Indeed, I did, and then I later revised my poor word choice. As for the second sentence, well, I'm not sure how to respond to such a bald assertion: insist "yes it does." I've quoted the text, mentioned the history, and others can decide for themself. At this point there seems to be good reason to believe that you're impervious to rational thought, as evidenced, in part, by this comment:

What law? emoticon

And one silly emoticon deserves another :rolleyes:

That's because legislatures are the tool through which the people express their will, not the courts. The courts' job is to say what the law is, not what the particular judge some lobbying group has hunted up thinks it should be.

My oh my. What I said must've sailed right over your head. If the NRA's understanding of the Constitution is correct -- which is to say that if their conception of the law had some standing -- then they would challenge the legitimacy of gun control legislation in the courts.

Funny, you addressed every point in my post except the one I thought was most interesting: If the second amendment were to be repealed, would gun owners have the right to keep their guns, on the same constitutional grounds that women have the right to abortions?

My eyes probably swept right over it; I can't say you're exactly capitvating my attention. Are you arguing for a potential privacy rationale for gun ownership? I think even a small child can easily identify the problem with that reasoning. (Hint: guns affect other people; there's a relevant public interest)
 
The militia argument really holds no truck with me, since militia is a term that translates (IMHO) to male citizens of the age of military service. You can even catch a glimpse of that meaning inside the Constitution itself, since Armies are "raised" ("To raise and support armies..." meaning created) and militias are "called forth" ("To provide for calling forth the militia..." as if the militia is something that already exists). This interpretaion stems (IMHO) from the various colonies establishing laws requiring firearm ownership and participation in the collective defense of the colony (a practice which itself was drawn from English Common Law). Certainly that interpretation is open to honest debate but the second is not. There is no place in the Constitution where a right protected for "the people" does not mean ordinary, everyday citizens.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I guess is you wanted a sematic argument, the phrase "the people" is defined in the preamble to the Constitution:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
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In order to keep you from looking like a silly biggot I will add to your post:

Also there is an even MORE significant, media led, anti gun religion.

you are all gun control advocates...every last single one of you. Don't waste my time trying to deny it....

what makes me smile are those that call thier preferred degree of gun control "freedom"....as if all other possible versions of gun control are not "freedom".....highly amusing.

hands up anyone who claims they are not a gun control advocate...
 
I'm a "Gun control advocate" However I'm not a "Gun outlawing advocate".

I support laws that control who gets firearms. I do NOT support laws that ban firearms outright.
 
you are all gun control advocates...every last single one of you. Don't waste my time trying to deny it....

what makes me smile are those that call thier preferred degree of gun control "freedom"....as if all other possible versions of gun control are not "freedom".....highly amusing.

hands up anyone who claims they are not a gun control advocate...

I am a Scotsman!

(Well OK I'm not but anyway a true Scotsman wouldn't.... ;) )
 
I'm a "Gun control advocate" However I'm not a "Gun outlawing advocate".

I support laws that control who gets firearms. I do NOT support laws that ban firearms outright.
you don't think certain types of guns should be outlawed? but do believe in a whole other heap of gun controls? Is that the line (outlaw certain types) between pro and anti gun? the line between freedom and repression?
 
you don't think certain types of guns should be outlawed? but do believe in a whole other heap of gun controls? Is that the line (outlaw certain types) between pro and anti gun? the line between freedom and repression?



What you said made absolutely no sense to me.


I support laws that regulate who gets firearms and who does not. For instance I don't believe mentally ill people should be able to own firearms. People who have specific mental illnesses like psychotic episodes would not be good with firearms. Also people who have extensive criminal records.


Specific types of guns? Well I think things that are to excessive to be used for hunting or personal protection don't need to be had. Missile launcers.
 
I would argue that the banning of the above is not totally ineffective. Sure it doesn’t eliminate the problem altogether but it certainly reduces the opportunities.



Let me rephrase...

It helps the initial problem "Extremly little" and it creates new problems as well.

Prohibition is basically ineffective against the prohibited substance and is extremly effective at causing more problems around the prohibited substance such as black market,Black market crime,Gangs,Unregulated material that is more dangerous,Slavery..ect..ect
 
Dustin said:
I'm a "Gun control advocate" However I'm not a "Gun outlawing advocate".

I support laws that control who gets firearms. I do NOT support laws that ban firearms outright.
Let me rephrase...

It helps the initial problem "Extremly little" and it creates new problems as well.

Prohibition is basically ineffective against the prohibited substance and is extremly effective at causing more problems around the prohibited substance such as black market,Black market crime,Gangs,Unregulated material that is more dangerous,Slavery..ect..ect
So how does contoling who gets firearms not cause more problems around the prohibited substance such as black market,Black market crime,Gangs,Unregulated material that is more dangerous,Slavery..ect..ect
 
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What you said made absolutely no sense to me.


I support laws that regulate who gets firearms and who does not. For instance I don't believe mentally ill people should be able to own firearms. People who have specific mental illnesses like psychotic episodes would not be good with firearms. Also people who have extensive criminal records.


Specific types of guns? Well I think things that are to excessive to be used for hunting or personal protection don't need to be had. Missile launcers.
fair enough but when you said you did not support "gun outlawing" I assumed you were refering to particular models as I don't know anyone who seriously suggests outlawing all guns is an option, although this is a common position assigned to people...

The OP of this thread, for example, suggests that there is a whole "side" to this issue that advocates outlawing guns.. If that position exists in other than an extreme and tiny minority I would hardly see it as a "side" to an argument any more than the microscopic lunatic fringe that would favor absolutely no regulation at all.....
 

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